Skeptic 2004

First, you're not stupid. Osae is something I had never heard of until about 6 months ago. And, it sounds like few people I've managed to talk to have ever heard about it either. Second, I'm still wrestling with the concept of osae myself. Basically, "osae" means "press" and it refers to a constant forward projection of your hara toward your opponent. Here's a discussion I hosted a while ago about it: http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=19034&highlight=osae Bear in mind I'm still trying to clarify this idea myself, but I think I'm just beginning to grasp it. My instructor says it's beginning to slowly manifest itself in my kata.

Edit: Uh..I guess I went on a tangent a little... In short, I wear regular clothes when I train too. There are three fallcies of training in traditional gi. First, techniques start to be geared toward as if your opponent is wearing a gi (lapel grabs, gi chokes, etc.). Last time I checked, Joe Blow on the corner of Shady and Shifty didn't have on a gi. To overcome this fallacy, one could either change up training in gi and "street" clothes as everyone else seems to be indicating so far, or (this might sound weird, but bear with me) train as if the opponent is naked. Chibana trained his grappling applications of kata as if the opponent were naked; as a result, his bunkai is downright gruesome in some places (e.g., ripping the opponent's ear completely off, crushing the opponent's trachea, etc.). The second fallacy of training in traditional gi is that people start performing techniques incorrectly because their gi sounds cool when they perform a technique a certain way. I used to wear 14 ounce cotton gi, and everytime I kicked or punched it made a cool snapping sound. The next thing I know, I'm falling victim to "executing-techniques-to-get-that-snapping-sound syndrome." Just because your gi snaps doesn't mean you did it right. Only now do I realize how much penetration I would lose in a punch, how much power I lost in a kick when I executed these in order to elicit that *pop* that sounded so cool. This is also the reason why my current instructor abandoned the traditional gi (we wear white t-shirts and gi bottoms, and when I practice on my own, I wear a t-shirt and shorts, sometimes wearing sandals, sometimes wearing sneakers, sometimes bare-foot. I haven't worn a complete gi since July). The third fallacy is that people tend to feel that when they don their gi they are donning their MA persona. If what you do is supposed to be second nature, then there shouldn't be a difference between your persona in the dojo and your persona out in the real world. The cognitive dissonance that occurs when these personae are not the same will mess you up if you get put in a sticky situation (I speak from experience...). With all of this said, I would encourage everyone to dispense with their gis every once in a while and train hard to overcome these barriers! Executing sans gi should feel the same as executing dans gi.

To address the matter of perfection, I would caution one to think critically about what it is that they are trying to perfect. Perfecting that XMA-ish jump spinning flying double dragon hook kick might be fun but lacks function. Think critically about your movement and its application first; perfect second. I thought I'd just pile more info on concerning the question of variation between karate styles, though I'm probably repeating something someone else has already said at some point. Variations between karate styles is normally due to what particular emphasis that style favors. Shorin Ryu, for example, favors close-in fighting, so Shorin versions of kata have short, natural stances, limbs close to the body, several jamming/stuffing/distraction techniques, and quite a bit of grappling. For the same reason that variation between styles is because of a particular stylistic emphasis, it is also because instructors may have a personal preference. For example, my instructor teaches and performs kata using full osae even though his teacher taught and practiced the half osae. My instructor prefers the full osae because it's easier to understand and practice the timing. Another great example is that my instructor's instructor made a personal version of Useishi for him. My instructor didn't like the knife-hand strikes and felt more comfortable using his closed fists; his instructor modified Useishi just for him accordingly. My instructor teaches both the original version and his personalized version. Variations may also occur because of physical abilities. There's a guy in our class who has problems with his shoulder, so our instructor made personal modifications of certain kata to accomodate him. There's another guy who blew out his knee in his younger years (all the guys I train with are in their 50's at least...) so he does certain portions of kata differently than the rest of us. Finally, variations occur because as Uechi Kid astutely pointed out earlier, no two people do kata the same way. In some cases, these variations completely change the range of applications or the applications themselves. In other cases the applications or range of applications may be the same as the original but executed slightly differently.

Shorin Ryuu is pretty correct about belt tests and belts in Okinawa with regards to karate. My current instructor trained with Chibana in the 1960s, and he described a typical belt test with Chibana as follows: Chibana called you up and asked you to do a kata or two. He watched. If he liked it, he gave you your new rank. If not, he told you to go practice more. For higher dan ranks (yondan and above), you did the same thing, except in front of Chibana and some of his senior students or a board of visiting teachers. To our understanding, this has not changed much. Shorin Ryuu and I have had the fortune of training with several nanadans who tested in Okinawa; their description of their belt tests is very similar to what Chibana was doing forty years ago. As far as shodans being meaningless in Okinawa, according to the senior individuals we've managed to be in contact with they pretty much are for all intents and purposes. Shodan gets your foot in the door if you want to visit a dojo - maybe. That's about it. Shorin Ryuu and I were trying to plan a trip to Okinawa to go train when we were told that we'd be largely ignored or rebuffed as shodans unless we had a letter from someone senior (i.e., a nanadan or better). There's no reverence (or much respect for that matter) for your skills just because you're a black belt. It's similar to turning 18; sure you're legal, but no adult takes you seriously. As Shorin Ryuu said, strenuous days long exercise in order to surmount some mental/physical plateau for belt promotion is a largely Western ideal. To those who wish to cite Masutatsu Oyama, bear in mind his weekend retreats to the mountains to beat the heck out of himself and his students was something he largely did for fun and because he felt it was good training; to my knowledge I'm not even sure he conducted belt tests during his beat downs.

It's cheesy, but the entertainment value is very high. I'd recommend giving it a go.

Yes, this is actually correct. Jigoro Kano introduced the ranking system in Judo to identify the lesser skilled students from the more skilled students, so he wouldn't inadvertently pair up a highly skilled student with a beginner when they would free fight (randori) and have the beginner get his butt thrashed. It was also an incentive based system to encourage his students to train hard. Gichin Funakoshi borrowed Kano's ranking system and introduced it to Shotokan; this was how kyu and dan rank was first introduced into karate. Originally, there was no rank in karate. The closest thing to rank in karate before Kano was sempai-ship (mentor-mentee, elder-junior, etc). You trained with a master. After a LONG period of training with him/when he felt you were qualified he gave you a menkyo kaiden (or some other teaching certificate), you went and opened up your own school and the cycle began again. History lesson aside, I've always had this dislike of the ranking system anyway. I've mentioned this in another post, but I'd like to throw out there at the expense of sounding cheesy that a blackbelt means absolutely nothing. With this in mind, people's ignorance concerning it shouldn't test your patience. If anything, it should be comedic.

Having never actually taught karate I cannot speak on the instructor side of the equation. Having been a lifelong student, I can speak on this appropriate side of the equation. I am partial to AnonymousOne's view, and his points are valid. I have digressionary argument (but it is relevant to the topic...sort of). It is valid only for karateka who are mature enough to understand what it is that they seek to do; little children obviously have no clue and cannot be held to the same standard. So long as an instructor does his best to provide sufficient instruction at an appropriate pace for the student, a student becoming bored in a karate class is a sign of complacency on the part of the student. If a student feels bored repeating the same katas and the same tecniques over and over again, there are two reasons. If a student feels bored with repeating a kata or a technique, it is because he or she feels like there is nothing left to refine. They "know" that kata already, or they "know" that technique already. I would argue that they are wrong (at the very least on Socratic grounds...). There is no boredom in refinement. Acknowledged masters continued to refine their kata or techniques until they were physically unable to do karate or they died, whichever came first. If a student feels bored repeating a kata or a technique, it is because he or she depends solely on the class as source of knowledge and pratice and does not bother learning or practicing things from class on his or her own. There is no boredom in learning outside of class and thinking critically. Shorin Ryuu wrote an excellent piece in his martial arts blog about these two things. Students should independently investigate techniques and concepts learned in class outside of class with training partners or on their own. This inspires them to think critically about their MA. If anything, practicing outside of class should generate questions in class. Instructors should verify these critical thinking skills. I would want an instructor who is hard but fair (I diverge from AnonymousOne on this particular point in that a traditional instructor can be a harsh taskmaster without be degrading or humiliating; I offer Chosin Chibana as an example). He would be a repetitious, broken record. He would challenge me to think critically about what I am doing and encourage me to practice things independently. My boredom with him would be no one's fault but my own.

I was not sure if I wanted to answer this since I've always had a disdain for rank (ironic given my profession...). However, I thought it would be fair to share my thoughts. I've sort of recently arrived at this answer after my time with my current instructor who gave up wearing his rank 20 years ago (he was a rokudan at the time). Because of my experiences with him I have developed a more cynical view. "What does having a blackbelt mean?" Absolutely nothing. *If you're curious, I am (was) a shodan.*

[Administrator Edit: Do not view this movie if you are at all sensitive to the sight of breaking bones, limbs, etc.] http://media.ebaumsworld.com/index.php?e=kickbreak.mpeg Download and watch. 'Nuff said.

Went to ld4all.com and actually did some the things they suggested for lucid dreaming. Wow! I had my first lucid dream a couple nights ago, and it was really neat. The funny thing is, I don't remember what happened prior to me becoming aware that I was dreaming, but I do remember everything that happened afterward. I was having a normal dream (which I don't remember in detail), but in the middle I realized that something wasn't quite right. Then, I became aware that I was having a dream (I even said in my dream, "I'm having a lucid dream!"). From that point forward, I was able to control time. A dude dropped a glass bottle, and it shattered. I rewound time to watch it come back together and fly back into his hand. It was pretty cool. I did all sorts of other things too, but manipulating time was just incredibly fun. At one point, I got tired so I said, "I'm going back to sleep". The world disappeared, and I don't remember anything that happened after that. I highly recommend trying out the dream techniques in ld4all.com. I'm living proof that they work!

Thanks for the advice...but maybe there's a slight miscommunication concerning my frustration. My stink is primarily with how I am supposed to move and flow and not so much how to execute a certain technique or which technique I am suppose to execute in a certain situation. To be honest I don't actually know a whole bunch of techniques so knowing too many of those isn't my problem. I study the concepts and principles from which techniques are derived (I'm sure there's a thread floating around these forums somewhere talking about techniques vs. principles), and I've been studying a lot of them lately. I academically know how I am supposed to move my body, project hara, maintain osae, and flow smoothly, all significant concepts in my style of karate. Actually doing these things in practice, however, is different...the body just hasn't come around to these ideas yet. My main beef is being able to know and talk about concepts, but not actually being able to do them. That would make me (and others suffering the same malady) an Armchair Martial Artist. Anywho, thanks anyway for the advice as it is still good valid, advice.

Judging from the lack of responses, I guess it is pretty obscure.... Jussi: I haven't actually seen the Shotokan version, so I really can't comment on it. If Funakoshi learned Wansu from Itosu, it probably was Itosu's version since to my understanding Itosu didn't teach the classical version (actually, from what my instructor says, it sounds like Itsou didn't regularly teach Wansu at all). However, Itosu Wansu is pretty significantly different from the classical Wansu (or at least the two versions I've learned are radically different from each other). I understand there are quite a few versions of Wansu. From what I understand, Itosu learned the classical version and then made his own version. Instructors who knew Wansu may have also modified Wansu to fit their student's taste, resulting in many variations. Perhaps Maeda or Kyan did the same?

Hello all. Thursday night I learned the Itosu version of Wansu (and might I add that it is quite neat both form and bunkai wise). I'm not really sure how wide spread this version is as I understand that the classical (Matsumura) version of Wansu is the most popular (and having learned both, I can say it is much easier to perform the classical version correctly). Anyone else ever hear of or know Itsou-Wansu? How widespread is it?

You know, I have to agree. After some thought, I realize that I've probably just hit a bad slump in my training. Being in this stink only just makes the Armchair Martial Artist Syndrome (I think I'll trademark this name...) more obvious. I suppose it's nice to have a place to vent, however. Thanks everyone for your input.

Another whimsical question: I've reached a point where I realize that I conceptually know a lot of things. However, I find myself increasingly unable to physically do all the things that I've learned/heard/read/studied from various MA instructors, books, and videos. While knowing is one thing, doing is something quite different. I find myself becoming an armchair martial artist, and it's quite frustrating. I train almost daily (though not recently because of a woman and the end of the semester crunch). Anyone else find themselves in this quagmire, and if so, how do you get out? Should I just in Masutatsu Oyama fashion train harder?

It sounds like there's a lot of ANGST! on this particular topic for some people. I'm happy to report that I'm not fed up. When I confess to someone that I train in karate, I find the spectrum of reactions I get to be very amusing. There's the "wow-that's-cool" reaction, which is actually the most common. There's the "I/my (fill in the blank family member)/my friend-train/used to train in-(fill in the blank)" which is the second most common. There's the "can-you-beat-me-up?" reaction which I've only gotten once and squashed pretty quickly when I challenged him to hit me. Then there's the "can-you-karate chop-that-(fill in the blank)?" which I usually laugh at and ignore. And of course, there are the bozos who do some chopping motion with their hands and give a sing-song kiai (my parents of all people do this the most...uggh). I reflect on all of the reactions positively because I find them so hilariously funny at times. The best way to handle it, I suppose, is to do two things. First, laugh about it and don't take yourself seriously; there's something wrong with you if you can't. Second, make sure your training speaks for itself.

This isn't exactly an inspirational or moral story, but hearing it I think it's kinda cool. I think it's a tale of karma. Chosin Chibana used to be a "tough guy" when he was younger, training hard with Itosu and Tawada and challenging people to fights. He had a strong sense of "kakedamashii" or "fighting spirit." As he got older he calmed down considerably but always wondered if his "tough guy" past would ever revisit him in some form. Enter my instructor. My instructor went to college on mainland Japan to train karate back in the 60's. He was (and for all intents and purposes acts like he still is) a "tough guy." His freshman year when he was trying out for his school's karate team he challenged the team captain (a senior and second or third dan) to a match; his mouth is still slightly crooked because of the broken jaw he received in that match. It didn't stop him; it only encouraged him. He found his way to Ohtsuka Hironori and trained Wado Ryu. His training as I understand was fairly hardcore. Encouraged by his intense training, he started challenging guys to fights and winning them. Ohtsuka took my instructor to Okinawa to meet some of the top guys there, including Chosin Chibana. Chibana at the time was in 70's, teaching a small group of students in his own school (Miyahira, Nakazato, etc.). Chibana ate, lived, and breathed karate, and from the moment Ohtsuka and my instructor walked into the house started talking about karate. The conversation took an ugly turn as Chibana began to disparage Japan style karate. Ohtsuka started getting mad. He lost patience and challenged Chibana to a match. Chibana obliged. They both stepped outside. Ohtsuka punched at Chibana. Chibana blocked. Ohtsuka fell to the ground, clutching his arm. My instructor sat wide-eyed; the man he had spent most of his training with in Japan had just been felled by an old geezer in his 70's in a single blow - a block no less! Chibana agreed to take on my instructor as a student, but kindly asked Ohtsuka to leave. During his early lessons with Chibana, my instructor used to replay the fight in his mind, wondering what on earth Chibana had done to Ohtsuka and how he had done it. It began to gnaw on him after a while, and the tough guy in him found him challenging Chibana to a friendly match. Chibana, smiling I'm sure, obliged. My instructor thought that maybe Ohtsuka had failed because he hadn't feinted. He planned on faking high and then punching low. He launched his fist in a high fake. Suddenly, he says that it felt like a 100 pound weight had just been dropped on his arm. He fell to his knees, clutching his arm. Chibana stood over him. "The purpose of training is to develop a strong punch, strong kick, strong block," he says. Walking away he must have chuckled to himself. His tough guy days had come to revisit him indeed.

In my younger and more vulnerable years, I used to practice naihanchi with ankle and wrist weights (the wrist weights were actually kinda cool because they were gloves so you could make a fist or open your hand). It was very useful for developing "speed" (I use quotes on purpose).

Sauzin: I think you're pretty correct on this. The only exception I take to it is that projection of your hara is not just something you visualize; it is something that you actually physically do. When your body is in alignment in the posture that I've tried to describe, your hara will come forward. You lead with your hara when you move and execute various techniques. My instructor didn't like Arakaki's Secrets of Okinawan Karate: Essence and Techniques, but it's ironic that osae embodies a special case of the whole imaginary center of gravity concept Arakaki talks about (which Sauzin concisely summarized as "the shifting of your weight [timed] slightly ahead of the stance that supports it causing your weight to drop into techniques"). I think maybe my instructor takes exception to the book because in many of the still shots Arakaki's posture is terrible (he breaks posture very frequently). The hardest part of applying osae is the fact that you MUST NOT break posture. Once you do, you lose the osae.

No. I've been trying to think of a simple experiment everyone can do because osae is just one of those things that you can't really describe in so many words, but if demonstrated you get it; that is, you get the concept. Applying is another story...and I still have trouble with it. However, the probability of experiment error is very high (i.e., chances of you doing it wrong are pretty great). I'll try anyway so you'll at least grasp the concept a little bit. There are two VERY important things for osae: posture and hara. Try this experiment standing in a natural stance. You must NEVER break posture during this experiment or you'll lose the osae. Imagine being suspended by a string by the crown (top) of your head. Imagine a pole being shoved up your rear and coming out of the crown of your head: that is your posture. Chin up and in slightly (kinda as if "pulling chins"...uggh...can't believe I said that), shoulders relaxed, back "straight" (there's a big debate on this in another forum, hence the quotes), open/flare your chest (but if your arms end up dangling behind you like an ape, you're doing it wrong). Now, project your hara forward; that is, project your center forward. If you just jut your pelvis out like you're humping the air, you're doing it wrong. If you do not move the hara forward, you will not osae. If you have no concept of hara/tanden/diantien, think of how a pregnant woman walks and how she projects her middle forward in order to take the strain off her back, but doesn't jut her pelvis forward like she's air humping. Walk "naturally" - that is, if you're projecting your hara forward, in order to move forward you'll have to walk with your toes pointing out. Parallel or toes in will feel like you're lifting your center up and over your leg...mostly because walking that way you are lifting your center up and over your leg. Hara must move forward. Don't just think about your legs, but imagine moving your body being a brick wall and that you're moving it forward. You should feel as if you're falling forward or something is pulling you forward. You are walking forward with osae. If you're into the whole imaginary center of gravity idea, osae I guess is a special case. You can also move backwards with osae. Grab a partner and have him punch. Block in any manner pleasing to you except, as you block, angle off (never, never, never, just stand there with your body square to him and block; you should always angle your body off) and move in on him with osae. If he strikes again, block, angle off, and move in on him with osae. I say this sequentially, but it all happens simultaneously. Remember posture and hara. NEVER BREAK POSTURE, or you'll lose the osae. HARA MUST COME FORWARD, or you will not osae. Make your blocks "sticky"; that is, don't just swing a limb out there, make contact with his limb, and pull it back. Be "sticky". Maintain contact with him. Notice I say "sticky" not "stupid". If you understand strategy and body mechanics (or cheat and just say "no grappling"), you'll be able to maintain contact with him without exposing your limbs to the threat of grappling or pressure point strikes (if he's knowledgable enough to exploit those). When you maintain contact with him and move in on him with osae, he must yield ground to you or be run over. It's like in the adventure movies when person falls in a pit, and the wall starts coming forward to crush them to death. Moving forward with osae is like being that wall, moving into crush your opponent. This is along the same lines of what I mean when I say osae extends to your limbs when striking, blocking, kicking or grappling. You can also move away from your opponent with osae. Even in retreat, you are constantly projecting your presence forward, and in essence being a wall. I hope this helps...though I'm not sure if I really answered anyone's question. I apologize for anything being unclear as osae is something I'm still struggling to adapt, but I just wanted to know if others were struggling with me.

Not to be too critical of you, Vertigo (and it seems like you might have realized this towards the end of your post), but if you're training your karate as a martial art there shouldn't be a distinction between your karate and your self-defense... (read my definition of "martial art" here: http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=230186&highlight=#230186 ) Kata tournaments seem quasi-valid (depending on how they are run and whether or not these are kata with valid combat application or made-up kata merely for show). While a tournment in general seems to be a quasi-valid exhibition of one's skill and an opportunity to share knowledge, training solely for a tournament is...well...dumb. I won't touch the kumite issue with a ten-foot pole, otherwise I'll just start rambling. To summarize how I feel, I'm going to steal Shorin Ryuu's signature block: "In the old days we trained in karate as a martial art, but now they train at it as a gymnastic sport - it must be a martial art at all times!" - Chosin Chibana

I'll have to go with Chosin Chibana; if my current instructor is any indication of how Chibana taught, I'd really would have liked to have been trained by Chibana.

Most of the assignments I was ever given by my old instructor was something involving researching the history of karate. Nothing really outdoorsish. However, given my unique location, I have the rare and wonderful opportunity to be able to practice kata on a literally deserted beach (up north away from all the tourists), and I have done so many times; "kata on the beach" is part of my regular curriculum. Out in nature there is a sharpening of the mind and an increased sensitivity to whatever it is that you're doing, especially if you're doing kata; and it's certainly the closest to "zazen" I've ever experienced. If there were ever any philosophical or spiritual aspect of karate that I've uncovered, it was usually through an exercise of kata on the beach. I hope your assignment is just as fruitful.

Looks like someone beat me to this benefit, but I've found this to be very true. I don't use it as a pick up line (I probably should since I have no game...), but when I've met some women and they ask me what I do for fun and I say "Karate", they suddenly become very interested in me. I'd also like to add that MA gives you a sense of a purpose (not necessarily a raison d'etre, or to supplant God's [or other divine deity that one believes in...or does not believe in] plan for one's life). When you begin your martial path, you become a part of something much bigger than yourself. This belonging gives one a much needed sense of a destiny and a purpose (once again, notice I use "a" and not "THE". I don't believe MA should be a raison d'etre, but I do believe it can enrich one's life).

I don't know if anyone here is a rap fan (actually, I'm not myself; I like R&B...rap is just way too much for me sometimes), but I think some rap songs have just enough ANGST to qualify as songs to fight/shadow box to. Almost by nature, none of these songs are really kid friendly, unfortunately. One of my roommates from college was a boxer; everytime he'd come back from practice or a workout, he'd pop on LL Cool J's "Shut 'em Down" and shadow box until the song ended...though sometimes he'd stick the song on repeat and he'd end up shadow boxing for ten minutes straight, going all out and non-stop inspite of how hard he just got his butt kicked before in practice/personal workout. I admired his athleticism. Other rap songs that my roommate used to shadow box to/I just thought of: Busta Rhymes/Notorious B.I.G/Puff Daddy's - "Victory" (this was the intro/theme song of choice for a number of boxers, actually, during our school's intercollegiate boxing championship) Busta Rhymes - "Gimme Some More" (this song has A LOT of energy) Eminem/DMX/Obie Trice - "Go to Sleep" (one of Eminem's more angry songs...) DMX - "X Gon' Give it to Ya" Ludacris/Mystikal - "Move, B****!" (actually, this is my fave when I'm stuck in rush hour traffic) Mystikal - "Edge of the Blade" Timbaland & Magoo - "We At it Again" (I think one of the Jet Li fight scenes in Romeo Must Die had this song playing in the background...take it for what it's worth)