Ottman

danbong had a good point in his post. It shouldn't really matter if your sensei was insulting you or not, and I don't think his intention was to put you down, but rather to improve your technique (or at least get you to follow his standards, which in his mind will help you to be a better martial artist.) While you're learning at his dojo, he will certainly tell you what he thinks about your technique and his technique, and their technique, and what he thinks is best. That is his job afterall. Just remember than any one instructor does not have complete knowledge of all marital arts, nor do they know what works best for you, so if you're doing something different than what he's taught you, that's your prerogative, but just know that you will certainly get comments and corrections from an instructor while training at their dojo, if you're doing things differently than 'their way'. If you don't like, or aren't going to take his advice, then just be respectful and don't say anything. If it's going to cause problems in the dojo practicing the technique your way, then don't practice it your way while in his dojo. I had this problem all the time with my last instructor, and it evolved into me doing things her way while in her dojang, so as not to disrupt her lessons (I'm not there to change her teaching style) and practicing my way outside of that dojang, and taking classes in other styles. It is certainly very vague just to say that you kick like a TKDer with no other explanation, so who knows what he really meant, but consider this example, which I heard Chuck Norris give in an interview: Bruce Lee had always kicked waist height or below until he started training with Norris. Norris (a Tang Soo Do student primarily) kicked high all the time, and Bruce (apparently) started out advising him against high kicking. Norris eventually convinced Lee that he should at least be able to perform high kicks in case he ever needed to, and Lee started incorporating them into his arsenal. Now go watch some Bruce Lee movies and see how many high kicks he does. Now your instructor may not have even been talking about the height of your kicks, as there are many other aspects of kicking that are different between TKD and Karate, but the point is that limiting your technique is never good. If your instructor has some ways to help you balance better, or generate more power, etc. that would be good feedback to hear. While TKD has gotten a lot of negative press amongst fellow martial artists as of late, there are plenty of TKDers that can deliver great kicks (regardless of height) and maybe your instructor just has a perceived notion of TKD kicks that is in fact bad kicking technique even for TKD. Ask him what he thinks you should be doing differently (if anything) with these (proposed) TKD-like kicks. It may be that what he thinks is taught in TKD is really just what he sees or hears of a lot of TKD students doing and it might be incorrect technique for TKD as well, and necessary to correct so that you are executing your kicks properly.

Clash, This is exactly the type of class I teach currently. It's not my main job, I don't want to teach anyone but dedicated students, and I don't want to take on a lot of students, and then not be able to give a lot of individual attention to students. As you are just starting in the martial arts, and it sounds as though you will be a very dedicated student, and interested in a more traditional atmosphere, I now think that you are correct in leaning towards the Shotokan school (and you should be following your instincts here anyway.) It also might be a little overwhelming to start 2 different styles at once, especially because it sounds like you do really want all the traditional elements, and not just a crash course in any art you will go into. That's not to say that the other school will not teach you good Judo, (or TKD) but two arts at once to start can be very difficult, especially 2 arts so different like Judo and TKD. It also (and more importantly in my book) seems that your personality is better suited towards the atmosphere in the Shotokan school. While I don't know the exact translation, a Sempai is a senior ranking student (almost always a black belt) who is akin to an assistant, or trainee instructor. It is not unusual for a Sempai to teach classes, and the fact that an all adult class is beginning is a good sign. It does sound like the Shotokan instructor is in it for the teaching rather than the business, and again, from what you've told us about yourself so far, you'll probably enjoy the atmosphere there better (nothing against the other school at all.)

I can see why the costs are higher at the TKD/Judo school if they train 3 times a week or more, and the Shotokan school only trains once/week. Testing fees vary wildly from school - school and style to style. It sounds like the dan testing fee in the TKD school of 200 - 300 dollars would include Kukkiwon Certification or something along those lines, or it could be a school that does a special 6 week black belt training course before the test or something. If you're wondering about the testing fees, I'd ask what those tests get you in terms of certifications, and what is involved in terms of scope. The uniforms aren't bad at $45. A little more than what you'd pay on the internet, but I've looked at schools who wanted me to pay $300 for their school branded uniform, and I didn't have the option of using my own uniform (I was black belt in TKD at the time already, and needless to say didn't end up training at that school.) Also, your own sparring gear is essential not only for fit and hygiene reasons as mentioned before, but also for the school's insurance policy. Any student who doesn't wear sparring gear is a huge liability, especially for the youngsters. Recommending that students get their own I would think would be more to ensure that there's enough gear to go around when sparring time comes. (Ever share sweaty equipment with someone? It's not fun.) It's a little strange that the Shotokan school's rates go UP after you've been there a while, but maybe that's a sign that the instructor only wants to instruct dedicated students, and will spend more time, and impart more information only after the student can make it through the first 6 months. Then the instructor knows you're serious, and knows how to instruct you better by knowing you better. I can't see anything yet that would scream McDojo from either school, but as BushidoMan initially said, you can't really tell from the outside, or from the marketing face of the school. Every school is a business afterall, and has to make money regardless of whether it is considered a McDojo or not, and every school wants, and needs to advertise to prospective students. You'll only be able to tell what's right for you by trying out some classes and starting to train at one of the schools, if you don't like it, you can switch to the other. I would say that since you want Judo training, go for the TKD/Judo school. Shotokan is great, but if it isn't all that you want then don't do it if you've got the opportunity to get what you're looking for.

Well said wildfire. I couldn't agree more.

My school has rank tests every 8 weeks or so. It is a combination of knowing proper technique, and performing it in freestyle matches. You can't even come to the test if our instructor doesn't think you're ready. We use a level system with 9 levels (as per the program we're certified under which is David Meyers' program), and have assigned a different colored belt to each level, so it's different than any other BJJ program I've seen, but you still won't be making black belt for a long time, and not without a lot of hard work. At some more traditional BJJ schools I've been to (in terms of belt systems) It's usually White, then Blue, then Black, with years in between ranks. I've seen Purple belts used quite frequently between white and blue as well. I'm sure it's like every other style though: depends on the school and the instructor.

I love the physics discussion too, and would love to see a book written on physics and the motion of the human body, but I certainly don't have the physics knowledge to do it myself. (In fact, I'm gonna go google that after this post and see if there are some books out there on this already. There's got to be something.) Anyway I have to agree with Cross. Technically good looking strikes are great for forms (obviously) but I've always been way more into practical delivery of a strike than it looking good. If you really take the time to train for power, and learn how to use the muscles of the body in the very coordinated way that you need to in order to deliver the most power/damage/destruction/whatever, I feel you learn a lot more about what the human body (what your body) is capable of than with traditional good looking technique in which you're trying to emulate a particular standard that may or may not work (or may or may not work for you at least). I've always been very interested in the physics behind it all, and I emphasize the difference between good traditional technique, and powerful effective technique (and especially where the two meet) in my classes. I think it's essential for an instructor to know intimately these differences and how the two can work together as well, in order to be able to teach different types of students. Obviously some are more concerned with power and practicality, whereas some are more interested in forms and demonstrating traditional technique, and an instructor should be a master of both IMHO.

Great points in this thread, but what about leadership ability? communication ability? organization ability? I mean are we talking just an instructor who teaches at a school, or an instructor that owns and runs the school as well? These would be 2 completely different styles IMO. (and then is the instructor creating his/her own curriculum, etc. etc.) I would argue that good leadership is the most important skill you'd need to teach. This includes things like passion, and communication, and organization. You have to do more than just show the technique well, as I'm sure we all know, you have to get your students to think and then to know that they can do the technique just as good as you can (with practice) and to understand why the technique is performed in the way it is. You also have to command the attention of a group of different people, and keep the class moving, not spending too much time on individual students. You also have to manage any assistant instructors and make sure that they are teaching the techniques as they should be and to the right students at the right times. Lot of time management, people management, and organizational skills here that may have nothing to do with MA. So age (to me) really has little to do with it, although there are certain ages, like teenagers, who might not have the experience to be full instructors, but I could see a twenty something with 10 + years of training, and a few years of assistant instructing, and instructing under his belt doing a good job running his own school, if s/he's a good leader, and a good organizer. As others have commented, skill never ensures that someone is a good teacher. You don't have to be good to teach someone else how to be good, as long as you know the basic fundamentals and can communicate them effectively.

I used to teach 15 - 30 minute private lessons for free at my old dojang, but of course that was only to students who were enrolled in the regular group class as well, and the student would need to sign up for the private, (I had a book with my availability) and put down what s/he wanted to work on during the lesson. This was more for students who had either missed one of their regular classes, and needed a make up to catch up, or who wanted some extra help with a particular technique or form, etc. Precedent was given to students who missed a class, and I'd take up to 4 students for 1 private lesson, but they all had to agree on what they wanted to work on. This was also not my school, and I was an unpaid assistant instructor. I just had so many people requesting extra help and lessons from me that I had to organize and limit it, or I'd never get my own training in. However, I have heard of instructors who only do private lessons, and they usually charge around $100/lesson. This is in Boston as well, and there is a whole market here of very wealthy, younger (25 - 40 year old or so) people with very demanding professional lives, but no kids, who can afford the private lessons, but don't have the time for the regular group lessons, so it certainly depends on the area you're in as well. With the numerous schools around the city, and the high cost of property and rentals, it's tough to start up a school, and a lot of instructors can do well (financially) by teaching exclusively private lessons. The few instructors I know of who offer only private lessons, offer their time, usually, for up to four students, which isn't a bad way to do it, but I do agree that you lose something by not training with other people of various sizes, ranks, ages, physical ability levels, etc. Not to say that you couldn't learn a martial art via private instruction. I definitely see both sides of the argument here, especially when it comes to students with schedules that don't allow them to regularly attend a school's class schedule. No reason to keep them from training just because of that, but they certainly need to pay for the extra time from the Instructor. If a student can make the group classes sporadically, but a private class regularly, I'd charge them for privates and make that their regular class, but allow them to join the group class when they could, (assuming I also teach a regular group class.) I've actually been thinking of offering privates for $$ now, but I would probably require any student interested to sign up with 1 - 3 training partners and split the cost. I'd make an exception for a student who already has MA experience and wants to train, but I'd probably lower the cost, or do it for free depending on the skill and commitment level of that student. I do think that you can focus more on a particular student's specific training goals a lot better in a private or small group class, and some people are after more of a personal trainer/coach like experience, and don't really care about the defense or competition aspects of the marital art. They just want to learn more about their own body and self, and you can really have some great private lessons tailored to a student like that. Just my experience with privates, and my own .02 for everyone to mull over.

I've just started my own class a few months ago and am only teaching once a week at a local athletic club on Saturday mornings. I still work full time during the week, and wouldn't even come close to making ends meet if I only taught my class. It's been touch and go so far, and the athletic club I teach at was just sold to a new owner which have put things like marketing to other club members on hold (actually every class from palates to cycle to my class is under review and any of them could be canceled by the new owner, so it's a little stressful right now.) But anyway, if you can find a place like an already established gym to start teaching at, it makes things like getting insurance, paying rent, and paying administrative staff etc., much easier, because the gym is paying for all that, and I get paid as their employee. I still retain complete control over the class and the pricing, and I split the revenues with the gym. It's a great way to start out teaching, because if it doesn't work out, you don't have a lease or long term financial obligations to worry about, and I'm also plugged into a large number of prospective students. My goal is to be teaching full time by next summer, and I have certain benchmarks like number of students, and amount of safety money saved up, that I've set for myself before I'll go down to part time, and then eventually leave my regular job. You have to look at it in the long term, just like starting any other business, and you have to be very conservative about what you can and can't do while you're starting up. You need to have exit strategies and contingencies for various scenarios that come up at least thought out, if not planned out in writing. While I mentioned that it's a little stressful at the gym right now, I have talked to the new owner, and it turns out that he owns a second gym nearby, and I'm now discussing setting up a complete martial arts program for both gyms with him. I certainly consider myself lucky for having such an opportunity because again, the startup costs are nearly non-existent for me. Another good reason to try starting out at a gym, you may have the opportunity to build a program with the gym's help. Otherwise, I'd have to find a space to rent, or buy one, setup my own administrative and billing systems, hire an administrative assistant, buy my own insurance, buy and install my own equipment, and find out how to market the class on my own. (and etc., etc. etc. not to mention actually teaching and focusing on that.) Eventually, as the class grows I'll setup an instructor training program and hire some new instructors to help me teach, especially as I'll have multiple locations. The ultimate goal would be to manage the instructors and the program at the 2 gyms, and have my own location (my headquarters so to speak) where I will be teaching myself, along with a staff of other instructors. I plan on this taking at least 5 years, but probably closer to 10. If you really want to be financially successful by teaching marital arts, again, you have to treat it like a business. The trick is balancing being a business person with being a martial arts instructor. While I'll have to make enough to run the schools, and support myself, I still can't let business operations or monetary issues interfere with the quality of my instruction, especially once I've gone full time as an instructor. So like any other business venture, it's tricky, and there's a lot of red tape to cut through, but if you're passionate about it, love to teach, and are willing to put in the time, effort, and sacrifice, then you can be a career instructor. And also, (like other businesses) things tend to get much easier after you've successfully started up. Starting a business, (and I know this because I've started 2 others in the past) can be absolutely exasperating, and can seem like you're getting no where at first, but as long as you stick with it, and just survive everyday, and keep chugging along, you'll eventually meet your goals. Good luck

Wow, an instructor of yours really did this? I'm afraid this is becoming a more common occurrence in MA schools these days. Kind of takes something away not only from the martial arts, but from the students that do deserve to pass based on the hard work and discipline they've put in and demonstrated. I'm not saying that relative skill compared to the student next to them should matter so much, but if a student puts in the work to improve his skill and leaves his heart out there on the testing floor, and another student does nothing, and has shown no improvement or serious dedication to their training, they should certainly not be passed. This is one of the many reasons I left my old school. Our tests were beginning to get easier and easier and my instructor was definitely more focused on who had paid, and much less on the MA. It's strange, because she is much more financially successful, with many more students now, than before when she was more focused on MA technique. I guess when capitalism consumes you, it really does.

Heh, good one Zanshin. My old instructor was actually somewhat lax when it came to late payments/not paying, and she would make arrangements with a student rather than expel him. I'd guess about 50% of instructors would be ok with making an alternative payment arrangement rather than losing a student, but there are those who are very 'money-centric' as well of course. The only time I've ever heard of anyone being expelled from that school was a younger student who had repeatedly vandalized the school. He got more chances than he deserved to clean up his act IMO too. (I'd have expelled him after the first time, or if I was in a very patient mood, I'd give him ONE more chance.) He was about 9, and was drawing on walls repeatedly, tearing wallpaper down, and the last straw that finally got him expelled: defecating in the bathroom, but not in the toilet. (Ewww)

Seeing all these posts about not training elsewhere without your instructors permission has me thinking, and I was involved in a situation like this recently, so I now want to discuss a little bit. (If this should be moved to a different thread, would a KF Sensei, please let me know?) I've heard a lot of mixed stories over instructors with students training elsewhere. It always surprises me when instructors kick students out for training at another dojang. Sure it may be considered disrespectful by some if you are going behind your instructors back to train, but unfortunately, in our very capitalistic society, I have seen and heard of many instructors discourage, or threaten expulsion for no good reason, except that they want to keep the revenues from that student coming in. In my opinion, this is a little despicable of the instructor and not representative of a Martial Artist, (especially a master or an instructor). Obviously circumstances can vary wildly, but what do you all think, in general, of a student exercising his right to seek the training he wants, and whether an instructor is justified in trying to control, in any way, the martial arts training of one of their students in this way. Just to start off, it is my opinion that the student is paying for instruction in a particular art, and while it is common courtesy to discuss further training at a different school with his/her instructor, it really isn't the business of the instructor at all whether his student is cross training at a different dojang, unless that external training is somehow disrupting the rest of the instructor's students or class. The instructor is employed to teach his/her style of martial arts to the student, not to try and limit or control the total training the student is seeking. If it is the students' decision to try out different styles or different schools, that is the students' prerogative, and instructors who discourage it, especially for economic reasons are: first of all, a little insecure in their own instruction and business (IMHO), and secondly dampening their students' strive for experience and growth. I for one, agree with AngelaG and would only encourage my students to cross train. These are the exact types of students that I want to work with the most. Please hit me with any and all comments, or if there have been previous posts on this topic, I'd love to read them. Thanks everyone.

Move in with a slip to the outside and high block on a diagonal away from you. Takes 'em right off their feet. The key is to make contact with their leg (with your block) and then slide your forearm right up their quad as you high block, continuing to move towards them and finishing with a nice shove to send them tumbling. (You really have to catch their telegraph though) Another good defense I use is to move into the kick before they can get the extension and acceleration of the kick fully moving. If you have proper balance, they'll push themselves over (past their center line) as they try to execute the kick. Think of it as more of a dampening effect relative to position than an actual block. Also have to be quick to catch the telegraph, but it's very effective if you train it well. Coordinate some punching in their at the same time and you've got some nice options for counters.

Ooh. Don't you get your funny bone twanged at times? I've accidentally 'blocked' (er, gotten hit) in the elbow right on that spot and my arm falls right down and just dangles in the breeze for a few seconds. Gotta present my other side and hold out until it comes back to normal. (As I'm now thinking about it, I guess if you're using elbow strikes to block, that would be pretty effective. In fact, I think I'll try that. Thanks B-man)

Hey guys, Can someone explain the concept of 'lunge' punches and kicks? I would expect a lunge to be the last thing I'd want to do to attack. You aren't actually lunging are you? Thanks

I don't know if I'll ever have a 'signature move' (too predictable for my taste) but I do like to allow my opponent to attack away while I remain relatively still. I use my balance and tend to move slightly into their attack to make them feel like I'm walking into the strike, but when they hit me with it, I'm usually in good enough position so that my blocks hurt their legs and arms a lot more than the strike hurts me. I end up attacking their strike, rather than attacking them, (so as to take away their weapons). The more powerful the strike coming at me, the better, as my opponents rarely realize that I've trained my balance enough to take full strikes even while standing on one foot. They think they're about to nail me hard, but instead end up stumbling off balance and hurting themselves on my blocks. This makes them gun-shy about attacking again and they tend to move into a more defensive, backing off strategy, which I take full advantage of. All it takes is the basics. If you know your stances well enough, train your balance to perfection (or as near as you can get it) and block firmly and with proper technique (making sure your body and center of gravity are positioned fully behind each block) then this is actually quite easy. Now it doesn't matter who is stronger, quicker, etc. It's whoever has the best positioning, and understands how to force their own center of balance into a situation that will disrupt the opponent's attack that wins. (Although if worse comes to worse, defensive side kicks and twist kick turn kick (off the same leg) are pretty good attacks to keep in reserve. I do really like to throw the twist/turn combo, setting my leg down as deliberately off balance as possible afterwards, and then nailing my opponent with the defensive side as he tries to slide back into range and counter.)

I think you've hit the nail squarely, and firmly on the head with your last post lordt.

I'm not sure if you were referring to my earlier post or not, but I meant that the person being taken down should try and maneuver for the armbar, or at least try to capture something on the way down to prevent their opponent getting a totally dominant position. As cross mentioned in the post above, people tend to freeze on the way down, and I agree that getting yourself into a defensive position and then focusing on the ground game is best to prevent this 'freeze-up'. The good thing about getting in the habit of focusing on positioning or possibly capturing an arm, etc. is that you're getting in the habit of reacting to your opponent, rather than just defaulting to a break fall, which (as cross also mentioned) may not work depending upon the position you're in. Also, as a few have mentioned already, being taken down hurts (at least a little) no matter what you do, so just getting used to the shock, whether you are executing a break fall or not will give you the poise to continue working through the pain rather than tightening up and panicking (which hurts more anyway.)

Absolutely mc. If I'm going down, he's coming with me.

Well I am still only 24, so I'd like to think I still have some resilience left in me, but I really miss being able to pull off a proper Aú Giratória (handspin cartwheel) on my right hand. Hey, don't rule out Capoeira training just because you can't move like the guys on TV and in the movies. Just understanding the basic Ginga movement is very helpful in a sparring match. Nice way to move in and out of an opponent's range, and avoid strikes without having to be super quick. You don't have to know all the crazy, break dance like cart wheel stuff to be effective.

Understood baron. That's the same reason I stopped Capoeira training (or slowed it to just above stopping.) I have a screw in my right wrist, so I can't flatten my palm out. Makes it very difficult to execute a lot of Capoeira moves. I can try to go down on my knuckles, and can sustain myself on my fingertips for about a second, but it's not the same.

Hey stop knocking high kicks Sure they're flashy and are over used by some people and some styles, but a sudden kick to the face can do major damage. You just have to time things right.

So true baron. as you can see from my styles I've trained in multiple MA's as most people on this forum have, but I wouldn't call myself an MMA guy, because I don't compete under MMA rules. Even though I actually take a class that is referred to as MMA, the only reason for that is because my BJJ teacher quit teaching, and this is the only school I could find that trained in BJJ in my area. They just happened to call the class MMA, because they also train in Muay Thai, focus on MMA competition training, and wear the MMA competition gear. The school also teaches TKD classes, Ninjitsu, Tai Chi, and a few other classes, but these are NOT included in the MMA class if you only sign up for MMA. And why not!!?? Because MMA has taken on a different meaning than just mixing martial arts. People did that for centuries before the term 'MMA' originated.

I also don't see MMA as it's own fighting style, but the problem is that a lot of people do, so now it's becoming a marketed style with a particular meaning: i.e. you will get UFC style competition training if you train at an MMA school, which kind of defeats the purpose of MMA, as you are training with a set of rules in mind, and it certainly defeats the purpose of what Bruce was trying to do with JKD. I think that's why so many put a clear distinction between a JKD school and JKD concepts. The whole point of JKD was that you couldn't really create a standardized style out of it. There are a lot of techniques/systems/styles that work for a lot of people, but only one style will work for you: Yours. So although MMA has become a style in itself, I think it should be referred to as 'MMA' instead of the full Mixed Martial Arts, as it has, in its commercial evolution, taken on a different connotation than true mixed martial arts. Try to find an 'MMA School' that teaches Tai Chi, or Nami Ryu, or Aikido, or Chi Na, or . . . You'll probably come across a bunch teaching Muay Thai (or some form of kick boxing) mixed with BJJ, but that's about it. Other arts are not getting into the 'MMA' craze, so how can it really be called Mixed Martial Arts? Don't get me wrong, I love UFC style competition, but it doesn't get the full spectrum (philosophical, and spiritual aspects are particularly missing) of a true martial art.

I have done both as well, but I prefer fist. Maybe it's because I have a screw in my right wrist from an old lacrosse injury and it's tough for me to move my wrist back far enough to execute the palm strike well. (I can do it, it's just uncomfortable.) The left hand I don't mind either fist or palm. I think people get a little intimidated about using the fist as they think it will be painful, but if you execute the technique properly, you'll go through the board and there will be nothing to worry about.