KempoTiger

ahh, I see. thanks!

There is a big difference. Find a REAL Wing Chun or Tai Chi Master and see what the punch feels like. A regular punch penetrates as deep as the flesh goes. It hurts the muscle or the skin and thats the end of it. A "penetrating" punch sinks alot deeper than that. With minimal force you can feel the spot you're being struck being blasted and instead of getting blown backwards like a boxers punch, you'll feel it seep into every bit of the muscle tissue and may even hurt the bone. I had a master that apparently was an expert in "Poison hand" fighting, and he had me hold a phone book to my chest. He first hit me with his arm and almost knocked me over. Then he said he was going to project his energy and "penetrate" with his punch through me, and I was again knocked almost over but this time he nearly took the wind out of me. The third hit he said he was going to penetrate and stop his strike short to project his energy into me but not through like last time. On that hit I didn't move much, but I felt the strike seem to sink in and down into me, and I immediately had a twisting upset stomach feeling. All of these strikes were seemingly using very little strength and were through the phone book rather than hitting me full contact.

I second that, but I think I'll be a bit more constructive in my criticism Train in Wing Chun/Tsun and focus on it. Don't just do it every once in a while, and take something else that completely contradicts the theories presented in you Wing Tsun class. Instead of becomming good at both, you'll merely be mediocre at best with both and will most likely frustrate yourself. If you're training to straight up fight and want to work on everything, I'd say drop the Wing Tsun and find a JKD or MMA school. If you're training for the art, and want a deeper understanding of how to better yourself as a martial artist than the typical "I wanna brawl" MMA type guys then I'd say pick something you like and want to learn and stick with it for at least a few years.

Ok maybe I don't get what you're saying. I just looked up Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do and most sites regarding that, refer to that as organizations branched off from Bruce Lee's system. Are you saying that you're problem with Jeet Kune Do is the fact that the principle behind it's meaning is already a focal point of another system? Because in that case Ch'uan Fa means "Way of the fist" while there seem to be quite many systems based off of using ones fists. And Taekwondo means "The art of hand and foot fighting" which I think summarizes quite a few martial arts styles that have pre-existed Taekwondo. So shall we go after them as well?

oooh.... wow I never knew that. I'll have to look that up and get back to you.

The concept of intercepting your opponents strike and/or energy and dishing your own attack back simulataneously although is the center theory or concept driving JKD, is not the only aspect to it that differentiates itself from others. Because yes, if that was it then he would have taught Wing Chun not JKD. You seem to forget that Wing Chun is a primarily hand strike oriented fighting system, with short powerful low kicks here and there. Bruce Lee never decreed any such rules, because he viewed rules such as that as nothing more than a hindrance on a fighter. He believed everyone had to find their own way when it came to martial arts, and that everyone would fight differently to some degree. So while I agree that JKD is truly little more than an idea, it still is a concept that he alone pioneered on a large scale in world. Heck Bruce Lee openly admits that most of the JKD techniques he taught were derived from Wing Chun, Western Boxing, and Taekwondo, despite how he never saw any of them as truly a "complete" art for a person.

I forget what the books called, but Bruce Lee wrote a book and he goes on about the pro's and con's of quite a few styles. It was quite interesting seeing how he praised some aspects, and utterly destroyed others of various well known martial arts and fighting systems.

...You trying to make me not see that movie? heh

Very interesting points you've raised Warlock. Thanks for taking the time to acknowlege my rantings. You've given me quite a bit to think about

I've heard similar stories. I agree that I'll have to see it to believe it. There also is a guy somewhere (forgot his name) that's already had an offer for a Million dollars to whomever can show him beyond the shadow of a doubt that they have some form of telekinetic power.....his offers been on the table for a few decades now.

y2_sub and UseoForce, I completely understand that there are quite many exceptions to my commentary, but I was just making a point -that I think we all agree on- that far too many schools don't enforce contact or actual fighting in the dojo so their students build up a great false sense of security and end up getting mopped up on the street. I was in no way making any jabs at any specific styles, systems, or masters. I was just making a point that Boxers/Kickboxers/Grapplers etc. train to fight (in the ring) but despite how they train with rules and most MA techniques don't have rules, that sheer power, and being used to taking a few hits gives those boxers and even untrained fighters a far greater advantage in the street.

My school is somewhat related to Villari's for my Master used to train with Villari for a bit until he decided to train with Cerio himself. We teach primarily Cerio's Kempo, but to the best of my knowlege the material is nearly identical at the Villari schools. If that's the case then I'd just mimic what everyone said above and find a good instructor and go with it, because the system is great as long as the Sensei knows what he's talking about.... I would also recommend switching over to one of my schools Dojo's but hey....

confusion is half the game The other trick is to do the movements with them, and tell them to raise their right hand and raise YOUR right (you're facing them so it's reversed) and they all raise their left hand to mimic you

Forgive me for not producing my evidence in graphical form, but I've heard of and have personally seen way too many self proclaimed martial arts experts/black belts get completely destroyed by some random guy that took them out without even spilling their beer. I know in most martial arts circles (and I assumed this one as well, considering I saw a similar debate-intended post elsewear on here) people debate over why in alot of fights they've seen the guy who goes to grapple of just pummel senselessly tends to come out on top all the time. I suppose I'm wrong and wherever you live Shorin, Li Mu Bai is the scourge of the bar scene, but I was merely hoping to bring some intelligable discussion as to why many martial artists get creamed in street fights, despite how the theories and techniques they learn are far superior to just brute strength and flailing arms. Excuse me

Everyone knows the arguments over whether a boxer/martial artist/wrestler or whatever would win in a fight will never end. But can we all just agree on the fact that boxers tend to usually come out on top in real life because they actually train to fight, and most martial arts schools don't actually train their students to truly brawl it out/take hits until high ranks...if ever? I've seen countless martial arts schools that only teach point sparring, and then their students wonder why they get their rear handed to them in a real fight.

I took Tai Chi with a Sifu in NY that also trained in my Kempo system for a bit. His class was awesome, and every movement we learned he showed us the practical application to it. In all honesty I can't say for certain how useful it truly is in a fight situation assuming you are fighting a competant opponent, especially a grappler, or Thai Boxer. I believe it's theories are sound and useful, but not entirely complete for a serious deadly situation.

I answer my boss "yes sir" at my second job even though I don't have an ounce of respect for him. I also seem to refer to every child I meet as "buddy" and break into my teaching mode when I see kids get unruly wherever I go....luckily so far parents haven't been insulted and actually have been the utmost thankful

Depends. What do you wish to gain from training? Strong kicks, and excellent tournament prowess? Go with Taekwondo. Relaxation, and the building of internal energy? Go with Tai Chi Cool looking forms and a better sense of fluidity? Pick a Kung Fu school Reliable, useful, quick to the point Self Defense Techniques? Go with Kempo, Kajukenbo, Jujitsu, Jeet Kun Do, or perhaps one of those Israeli military defense schools like Krav Maga. Want to learn to straight up fight in and out of the ring? Go Muay Thai, JKD (a GOOD school), Brazillian Jujitsu, or quite simply a gym that runs a decent Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) class. Of course I am generalizing greatly in the way I am describing systems here, but this is the basic jist of what you're looking at if you really have no idea what style to choose from. Good luck with whatever you decide to do! -KT

Warlock, I think you're misreading my question asking about true styles in the sense of purity with the concept of universal truth. I only ask how many systems stay "true" to the dogma that they once taught back during their founders creation of them. My point is that just about every style has a founding theory or concept behind it, that is incomplete when it comes to the overlying necessity of self defense or fighting prowess. To compensate for whatever each style may be lacking today, especially in America most martial arts schools are adding in alot of theories that aren't pure to what was originally taught. Many martial artists seek "pure" styles, but in my opinion if such a thing still exists today it's not very useful. Styles such as Kempo, Kajukenbo, Jeet Kun Do and the like try to encompass all of these theories but depending on the instructor it's often not taught properly. If you look at the UFC, many martial artists have had to reconsider their fighting strategy, and have taken up learning various grappling systems/techniques. Now when you watch the UFC you get to see the little info bar telling you what styles the fighters have trained in, but they all tend to fight the same way in some MMA/Grappling style. Just something I've been thinking about.

I completely agree and share your distaste for schools that mix and water down their systems to make them more "friendly." The school I train in isn't exactly a full contact MT or JKD school, but we have the students that really want it fight with some contact and really learn to fight and the rest can take it a bit more easy. I tell my students right off the bat that they will only get out of my class what they put it, and if they wuss out of every workout and shy away from every sparring match, then so be it and more power to the ones that want it. Most of my adult male students wanna brawl so to speak, and don't want any watered down garbage. But most of my non-child female students just want to learn a few self defense techniques and get a workout.

Welcome, always good to have another new yorker here, especially a fellow long islander

Ahhh, that takes me back to my days of Sifu Says. It worked just like Simon Says, but with Kung Fu practise in there. It was lots of fun when I was a young'un. I'm sure the Japanese teachers of you could adapt it to "Sensei Says". The last one in got to be the "Simon" of the next game, a prodigious honor! Hahaha, yes we do play that game. We call it Sensei says if Sensei is running it, or Nidan says if I am, or Shodan says if one of the first degrees are. The best trick is for you to say "Sensei says" or some other title that's not yours and half the room gets out

Nah I'm not the school owner, just been doing this a long time. I suppose I've said all I'll say here. I'll continue this via PM alright? I'll contact you in a bit.

I wish we could have a second floor, but the building we're in now couldn't support that. We have looked in the past for a split dojo with a left and right side like some of our other locations, but so far we've been doing ok for now. Oh yeah, it's great sometimes. Problem is we never seem to get that many intermediate to advanced adults in the room at the same time! I'd love to have some brawling action, but the kids are entertaining enough. We have alot of different sparring scenarios, and there's nothing quite like watching four mid-ranking 10-12yr olds go at it in a team style sparring match The material itself is pretty set in stone (well at least I tell myself that despite how techniques are frequently changed ) But what the class entails itself is pretty much depending on who's there. Each class we pretty much tailor make depending on the students attending. For example if we have 4 students in the room that are pretty much training for exercise purposes, we're not gonna have them throw on the MMA gloves and start some UFC style king of the ring action. Pretty much each class, kids and adults regardless is made up on the spot depending on what they need to work on. <<<>>>

Oh and right now (summer time) our classes greatly vary in size from having anywhere from 4 to 15 kids in a class, and our adults usually sitting on 3-10 per class.