KempoTiger

MMA gloves

fightingarts, I completely agree with your assertions. I was wondering how long it would take before someone had to comment on something like that post. I really just wanted to see what king of reaction I got. Not saying that I don't stand by those words, but I do admit that I was greatly generalizing in my categories to make a point. As far as "mastering" a style, I mean mastering what works for them. Kickboxers and grapplers seek to attain a level that many traditional martial artists ironically also seek. To feel complete control of ones body, and being able to react to a hostile surrounding on an instinctive subconscious level. Now determining when one has "mastered" something like boxing or grappling I will admit is something none of us can claim to decide, but you can't deny that some are more in tune so to speak than others. A friend of mine has taken up MMA and it's gotten nearly * just trying to hit him (let alone the fact that when you do hit him he doesn't care and keeps pushing forward with a split lip or busted nose). He's got his game down pact, and knows what he's doing. As much as I hate to compare it to this, it's like that kid that plays video games all day. He's got his one good character that he can kill anyone with, with a series of ironically simple techniques. On a side note, I've begun testing the waters and when I fight him I attempt to pull some very unconventional teachniques and ideas that to my amusement sometimes tend to work, just because he's never expecting me to do something like that. So I suppose in my video game analogy, I guess I'm the kid who mashes the buttons and gets lucky

My point is that the body only moves in a certain number of ways, and only a fraction of those movements could be implemented into a fighting style. Now I don't know about your system of Okinawan Kenpo, but I've already said that the sole foundation of my system is using what works, and even to an extent taking what works from other systems. Now while this may be an entirely different theory to training than your school, I can't hardly imagine that the way you are trained to fight is so vastly different that it is comparable to the differences between strict boxing and grappling styles. If we use practical techniques and your system teaches truly practical defense, then logically there must be some overlap in similarity between the two. As Jet Li said, we only have two legs and two arms, and there's only so many ways to fight with them. Sorry but the way I was taking your past comments was that Ken/mpo schools in the US were stealing the name from the true Okinawan predecessor. I'd love to talk about the different theories and techniques you train with though. On this line of thought, might I ask, what kind of stance do you normally train your students to fight in? Traditional long bo type stances, or perhaps more of a boxing stance? We teach to keep one foot in front of the other in what we call a half moon stance, with the hands up on guard in a boxing guard. We emphasize heavily on staying in constant movement with light footwork, and not to project your motions until the moment of impact. Anyway, sorry it seemed we got off on the wrong foot.

Very good points raised Kaju, but don't let yourself fall into that comfort zone of justifying techniques you know don't work within your own system. I know countless techniques from various systems that don't work on someone simply because they have an efficient guard and fast punches. But dedication in training is a very vital factor.

You know you really had me until this comment, "And I swear by all that is holy that there are no two martial arts on this green earth that are more different then American Kenpo and Okinawan Kenpo." Let's see..... Savate and western boxing? TKD and Brazillian Jujitsu? Pankration and Mantis Kung Fu? Shall I go on? Honestly I'm not saying that you're wrong that the systems are different, but this whole attitude that Okinawan Kenpo is this vastly eccentric yet eclectic art while american Kempo and it's ilk are nothing more than wannabe knockoffs stealing the name really isn't selling me. Thanks for the links though, I'll need them when revising my paper on the history of my dojo and system.

I think in Fist of Fury they use steel swords, so I may be confused on that part....or perhaps they were Bokken. Hrm....it's been a few years since I saw that movie, cut me some slack

Welcome to my world How hard was he engaging you? If he was a black belt, he probably was just there to work with you, and let you get a feel for getting to hit someone as hard as you can. When I teach classes to new students, I often allow myself to be a dummy for them so they can get a feel for the move, as well as get a feel for what it's like to hit someone. Better they vent on me than on some other student

American History X

The only thing more annoying then people making certain claims is when you ask them to back up their talk. "I can knock you out before you even touch me" when asked to prove it.... "I can only fight if its a life or death situation- sport fighting is dishonorable." I guess this means they're doomed to forever be picked on by any bully or drunk bar patron, so long as his doesnt brandish a knife or gun. I consider myself a "traditional" martial artist, but I'll fight ya even if Buddha gets mad at me

Well I'm already commenting so I mighta as well continue. Here's my take on the whole "who would win" argument of a real street fight, no holds barred etc etc.... Let me illustrate my next point with numbers. Lets put a rating system on peoples fighting ability in what they do. Lets say that UFC/Pride fighters are the top with a level 3, alongside Sensei's and masters, the supposed "best" of TMArts. Then lets say there's lesser fighters in local competitions, or are aspiring fighters still in training and give them a 2 rating, and have students of those TMarts instructors being a 2 on the other half of the pie. Then there's untrained street brawlers at a lvl 1 and new TMarts students at level 1. ------- Now at the top of the food chain, the UFC style competitors have honed their skills to near perfection. They have their system down, they know what works and doesn't work, and move like well oiled machines. It's ridiculously hard to get strikes in on them, and even worse when you try to grab them. So at the top fighting level lets say that the MMArtists win most of the time due to this. ------- Then we move down a level. Now at level 2, the boxers/kickboxers/grapplers are less talented at what they do. They don't have their timing down yet and their techniques are still slow and unrefined. At this level of talent, the TMArtist now has many more openings to get shots in than at the higher skill level, and judging by the fact that TMarts teach you to go for devastating strikes, my money would be on that guy taking the prize at roughly half the time. The argument that's always brought up is, "well if the MMartist is any good then he won't let himself get caught with such vital blows, and before the other guy can do any locks or grabs he'll be pounding his face into the pavement." Well in this scenario at the non-professional level, the tables tend to be a bit more balanced. Without having such a style of fighting perfected, there's countless vulernabilities that they are left open to. Trying to block a flurry of strikes with your hands on guard shielding your face isn't too good of an idea when you haven't yet got your hips to sync with the rest of your body to shield your lower body, and dish out those devastatingly quick blows to KO your opponent. -------- Then at the lowest level, I'd say the senseless brawler takes the cake. The Martial artist will no doubt try to do "something" he or she learned, and in the end it probably won't work the way it was intended, and the other guy will just tackle and pound them.

I was going to comment....but I decided against it....but I'm already typing so I'll just say that judging from my past discussions/arguments on this topic I'm inclined to agree with Subgrappler. One factor that should also be taken into consideration (which most martial artists regardless of background hate to admit) is size. People that train for the cage tend to get jacked and powerful, wherein TMArtists tend to just work out a bit a few times a week in a dojo. And when that guys got 30-60lbs on muscle on you, it's gonna suck when he takes that shot to the face/gut and gets a hold of you. I fortunately and unfortunately have the opportunity to fight an aspiring UFC fighter, and he's given me a bit to think about when it comes to REAL practicality and what works. Alot of things seem great on paper, and even in demonstrations, but don't fall into the mental trap of thinking "well it doesn't work for me because I'm not good enough or fast enough yet." Don't make excuses like that for your style. I did it for years. Although I still disagree with the basic premise that ring fighting is the closest thing to a real fight, and that a boxer/kickboxer will pound the life out of any TMArtist that attempts to do anything beyond box and shoot for a takedown, I will say that MMA teaches one alot and everyone should get a taste of it at least. On a side note, I did have another wannabe UFC kid take a shot at beating me. But unfortunately for him he doesn't have that 50lb weight advantage on me, so I quickly showed him how well a strike to his knee followed by a groin shot can work before I choked him out in a "traditional" crane style, ridge hand choke, rather than using a guillotine or rear-naked.

And moreso than the clothes....the plot???

They're that rare? I have one right near me on the island. Regular karate school to the best of my knowledge but they teach Ninjitsu.

I couldn't tell you specifically which, but you can bet it was some form of Kung Fu from the Shaolin temples...just depends which temple.

I'm going to have to ask where you got this information from. Even direct students and friends of Mitose don't know the extent of his martial arts background. He's been a rather criticized yet enigmatic figure. As far as Okinawan Kenpo, from what I know it is merely a hybrid style formulated by combining old family styles of martial arts with the knowledge that was introduced by Shaolin monks seeking refuge on island. I find this hard to believe. Judging by what you say here, I'm under the assumption Okinawan Kenpo is one of the most exclusive and eccentric forms of martial arts ever devised. The guiding theory behind at least my branch of Kempo is practicality. Taking what works from other systems, and embracing all theories as long as they're sound. Now either your system has no practical techniques at all in it, or you're exaggerating the differences between Okinawan Kempo and Chow/Parker/Cerio's. When you say Kata's and techniques aren't the same, are you implying that they are vastly different in a sense of "night and day" as you said? Or do you simply mean that they are different? Because if that's the case, then I suppose my system and Villari's are "night and day."

what % share he wants out of the deal, and then you can decide how much to charge. Make sure it's clear that you don't make the classes intentionally oppose the theories and techniques represented in TKD (ie: "well this move is better than the TKD move because etc....), and expect the same from the other Sensei.

whats exactly the problem with it? A dojo you can use to make a few extra bucks, and teach a different martial arts theory than what students would regularly train in. Sounds good.

Honor is a meaningless thing when in an honorless fight wherein someone is trying to take my life or harm my loved ones. Simply put, I have no problem curb stomping, eye gouging, groin ripping, or wacking upside the head with a 2x4 with a nail in it to someone in a given situation. I also would hope to show that I have the self control to inflict as little damage as necessary when in a hostile confrontation. I don't intend to cripple or kill some drunk at a bar. It all depends the situation.

But I'll also be going for that facial shot. But not in an attempt to ground and pound you, but to rather get you to expose your neck so I can crush it. Or so that you stumble a step back so I can stomp on the side of your knee. My going for the "cripple" comment encompassed this theory. I'd never try to go for an arm bar or lock, but rather just hyperextend/break it if I felt I was truly in life threatening danger. you can't punch?? ugh...sorry man, that sucks. I hope you're a big guy

Your Sensei handled that perfectly. The only thing I would add is that he should have spoken to the mother about interrupting class, and to not spoil her daughters possible passion for martial arts by putting her through further pain and embarassment. I had a guy like that once. He started off very respectful, but finally got to the point he was mocking other students in class. So I told the class to get on sparring gear. When it came his turn instead of fighting another student, I stepped into the square, and promptly beat the life out of him. After class, without naming names I went into a speech about why we train, and what we're learning. I also went into a bit about how if anyone was here just to learn to hurt other people, then "there's the door." He came up to me after class and told me how he was amazed at how fast and how "good" I was....but then I never saw him again. I suppose he found the door.

Kara-Ho Kenpo I believe is the name Professor Chow eventually settled on to call his style. Chu'an Fa means "Fist Law" and is the Chinese translation of the word "Kempo", and most schools that use that name I believe came from Ed Parker. Kenpo is a common mispelling of Kempo, so no there is no difference between them. When the Japanese characters are romanized there's a rule about whether an M or an N is used before a P, and the technically correct spelling would be KEMPO.

Very well put...and I'll add in a real life situation where my life is in danger I won't go for the KO, I'll go for cripple or the kill. Both much easier to do than KOing and submitting combined if you ask me.

Okinawan Kempo is the basis of all Kempo. Okinawa being the Asian melting pot it was bred numerous hybrid styles of fighting that came to be known loosely as Okinawan Kempo. From there all it's respective branches formed. American Kempo is a branch of Hawaiin Kempo which was founded by James Mitose. Mitose's family lived in Okinawa and taught their own respective family style of what Mitose called, "Kempo-Jujutsu". From there Mitose and a man by the name of William Chow (a son of a Shaolin monk who met Mitose in Hawaii) founded their first Kempo school, and this system is the basis of Ed Parkers "American Kempo." So in a sense, Parker's Kempo should be very similar to much of the Okinawan styles, but Parker also altered the system to his liking and trained with Bruce Lee to the best of my knowledge. So much early JKD theory was also implemented. Many other Kempo schools are derived from the Kajukenbo system via Sijo Emperado. As Kajukenbo moved across the US map, many Sensei's and masters returned to train with Professor Chow who then began to teach his newly formed variant of Chinese Kempo. Some kept the Kajukenbo name, other's reverted to calling their system Kempo or Kenpo, and others such as Sonny Gascon invented new names such as Karazenpo Go-Shinjutsu. In the end though it's all the same underlying theory despite the political nonsense. I'm not sure about "Krean" but most Kempo schools that claim to teach Chinese Kempo are either Villari schools or descendants of the Villari system that branched off. Villari was a student of Professor Cerio. Cerio trained under a Kajukenbo affiliate school until he sought out to learn directly under Professor Chow.