wing chun kuen man

,SevenStar, I think drunken monkey answered part of your question. Now, don´t misunderstand me about my gorilla type example, I don´t underestimate any enemy, they could be big or small gorillas, it does not matter. There is a difference between a street thug with breaking abilities and a highly trainned person in REAL traditional Okinawan Karate. If you don´t see that then I won´t be able to make you see it either. Wether something is high or low level DOES matter, because if you knew the difference you would not have been asking me wether it was a specific strike or wether it is instantaneously transferred. Well I´ll answer you anyway, yes it is a specific strike, that is in the way internal energy is projected through an opponnents body. And yes the effect is instantaneous, very much so. The energy penetration can be such that a strike to the chest of a person can not only cause damage to the immediate organs, the heart and the lungs but also go through to the vertebrae, causing immense damage to the central nervous system, independente of the fact of wether the subject is fat or covered in muscles. This among the "high" level of techniques in kung fu and you don´t learn that by punching bags only. It involves long term internal trainning and dedication, that is if you find a genuine school that is willing to accept you as a student. You may believe what I have just said or you may not, but you asked and I answered the best I could. I could break someones arm before I got involved in the martial arts. Many non-martial artists can break arms, fingers, etc. in a fight (sometimes their own lol). However, at advanced levels things are differente, you know that yourself. The holding the head of a weakened opponent´s head, was just an example of the way a bone crushing strike could be delivered to the face/head area and YES it can be lethal. Hits at certain vital areas in the face can lead to death and or permanent injury. It depends of course on the accuracy and the type of delivery and yes I am sorry it is complicated, but that is why it is called High Level. And yes it is unlikely that someone in this forum could have this level of ability (you´re telling me?), but if there were people here with this ability they would be unlikely to admit to it publicly, because that is not the values they are taught in high level chinese martial arts and besides, they will be in danger of being condemned to a life in a circus side show by people like you...LOL. Seriously though, if you are genueinly interested and want to go deeper into advanced concepts of the chinese martial arts then you can research it. Look for good books out there and other material on the internet. Because here in the forum it is my word against your word or opinion and we can go on forever. All I am saying is that if you have doubts about what I am saying here, then instead of arguing on the facts with me you may wish to look up other sources, that is if you really want to increase your knowledge in the area of the internal aspects of Kung Fu. Whew, to think that all this started with me stating my top ten self defense arts....... Peace, Wing Chun Kuen Man

Hello, I think that it is very difficult to discuss historical and techniqual aspects about the martial arts generally speaking and especially about kung fu, where its history is full of myths, legends, double meanings and codes. Not to mention the language and the various chinese dialects. As a result definitions become somewhat complicated where you and I might be saying the same thing without knowing that we are saying the same thing. As result any simple discussion can turn into an eternal mental foot ball game. However, I think that if one is studying any martial art, they should try to be a scholar in it or at least have some understanding of its history and characteristics and so on. If I am not mistaken that seems to be your belief as well. My understanding of kung fu, primarily Wing Chun is based on my trainning and the teachings of my sifu as well as my own research. I am trying to learn more and more each day. When I refer to long range in Wing Chun, I am not only referring to its ability to close gaps, which you correctly mentioned, but also to a few of its punching and kicking techinques that are more associated with longer range styles. Overwhelming and "running over" of an opponnent is an important priciple, but this not a concept that is exclusive to WC. Tiger claw style uses this principle as well, of course in its own peculiar way. It also has its own versions of short explosive punches that many associate with Wing Chun. As for Yip Man, he did take out some techniques from his original Wing Chun, to make it "more accessible". Also some of the original trainnig methods used on the mainland were supposedly taken out by him. This does not make his Wing Chun weak or anything like that, but it does make shall we say less rich. The positive side of this is that Yip Mans art was practical and could be mastered in a relatively short time, which in turn contributed to it becoming popular world wide (with a little help from Bruce Lee of course). One example of a discarded technique is the low level to mid level round kick which we practice in our system that I am told does not exist in the Yip Man style. As for Wing Chun being "anti shaolin", you have something there that I think is worth looking into and I will. I know the techniques can be used against the shaolin arts but at the same time as I said before other high level systems possess this capability, because like Wing Chun they can trace their roots to the Shaolin temple (the snake and the crane etc.) where there was constant interaction within the styles and the stylists who tested and researched each other´s strengh and weaknesses to improve their capabilities. Just quickly. As far as breaking hard objects is concerned I think that it is an important aspect at the higher levels of martial art training and not important in the lower levels. It is my belief that non-martial artists can learn to break hard objects without having to train in martial arts and this ability will be irrelevant in a real fight because as you correctly implied in your post , the dynamics are different when it comes to someones head. In short if I have a street confrontation with a lets say a big gorilla type who is known for his habit of breaking hard objects I will not feel as threatened than say facing somebody who is trainned lets say in real traditional Okinawan karate or kung fu for 10 years and whom has the cabability to punch through breaks and rocks. In the real traditional martial arts the breaking techniques were always connected to combat effectiveness, ie. breaking bricks would translate to breaking human bones. Of course as you said the human head is different from a brick. A real karate/kung fu man would compensate for the difference by perhaps supporting the back of the head of a weakenned opponent with one hand while striking the face with the other. Of course the face or the head will not break like a brick but the damage can be lethal. At high levels breaking techniques can be used to break collar bones and limbs, but of course as you said there is a difference. There is another even higher level to breaking in internal chinese martial arts where the experts transfer their energy through layers, eg.breaking the third or fourth tyle in a stack without damaging the first two, meaning that instead of causing external damage only the strike will cause intenal organ rapture in a real confrontation. Again I am talking about the high level martial applications and not some circus side show. My lineage. I have been given the written information and a chart on my lineage by my sifu, now if I can just find it. I will be trainning with him on Tuesday and if I have not found the info by then I will ask him to tell me about the lineage again and I will post it here, OK? Peace, Wing Chun Kuen Man

Yes you are right and the river in question is the Yangtzee river in China. However, shaolin long fist is still a long range style even though like all styles of kung fu it posseses short range capabilities. Actually there are various styles under this umbrella name. One more thing, you would not believe how long range it can get....I won´t say anymore because I don´t want to spend the rest of my days sending posts to people who don´t see further than their punch bag. I am not talking about you by the way, as you seem to have an understanding of chinese martial arts and their inbuilt concepts. I made a mistake in my previous post by not saying that Shaolin Short fist is not a single style but a name that refers to southern chinese short range styles that INCLUDE wing chun. As you will know at chum kiu level I am not yet trainning in weapons. As for the question of using a long pole in an alley, well if an alley is too small to use long range hand and foot techniques it may be too small as well to use the Wing Chun pole. In the end it comes down to the size of the alley. My Wing Chun weapon of choice in an alley fight would be the butterfly knives, because they are smaller and are easier to conceal than a pole. They are also edged weapons that are capable of causing more damage, specially where fighting space is restricted. I have never heard of a Hong Kong lineage of Wing Chun using darts in their weapons trainning. However, darts are incorporated in some mainland China lineages of Wing Chun. I study a mainland China system of Wing Chun and we have techniques and kicks that do not exist in the Yip Man lineage. It is my understanding that Yip Man did shall we say a "Funakoshi" to Wing Chun, i.e. he "modified" it. While we are on the subject, there are some mainland styles (not mine) that also use real wide stances that look more like the classical shaolin than Wing Chun. Anyway, you may find references to darts in Wing Chun in books or in the internet, all I can say that it exists in the lineage that I practice and probably in other lineages outside Hong Kong. When, I said that Wing Chun was used in wars, did not mean an army of Wing Chun exponents charging the imperial guard units of the governments on horses. I suppose it is a matter of interpretation. If I join a group of friends to fight for "freedom" from "oppressors" then I am at war with them. If I am trainned in any art that helps me in my battles specially in the combat aspects, then I am learning an art of war to help me fight a war. It can be called a martial art or a fighting art but WC was used in lets say hit and run and or as you termed it "terrorist" actions. One man`s terrorist is another man´s holy warrior who is given full military honor when he gets killed in action, again it is only interpretation. As for it being anti-shaolin you are right but are´nt all high level shaolin systems equipped with the necessary tools do defend themselves against other shaolin styles? I think they are. The difference with Wing Chun was that you would learn these defences in a relatively shorter time span, which made Wing Chun practical in a time of war or lets say civil disorder. What I am saying is based on my readings and info that I have gotten from my sifu. However, I am here to learn more. As far as breaking bricks, etc. is concerned suffice to say that it is a real phenomenon and I suppose some martial artists use it to measure their power or for demonstrations of their capabilities. Could they be faked to fool the public? Yes of course, so can many other things. Does having the power to break hard objects mean that one can fight? Not necessarily, but if he knows how to fight then BEWARE! Peace, Wing Chun Kuen Man

Interesting info on the weapons, I did not know anything about the MuyThai weapons. I appreciate the fact that sport thai boxing may lack the techniques and the essense of real traditional Muay Thai as an art, and I said before I consider it to have depth and history. Just that I consider kung fu to have more depth than Thai Boxing. After all it has influenced the development and evolution of countless other far eastern martial arts including those of Karate, Jiu-jitsu and various korean and vietnamese fighting systems. Its far reaching influence is proof of the great depth and richness that is Kung Fu. And there is the internal aspect of kung fu trainning that is ignored and misunderstood by the majority of the martial artists in the west including many kung fu practitioners themselves. Maybe because it takes a long time to get tangible results and it conflicts with the "time is money" philosophy of the modern martial arts business. Then there is Chin-na, joint and nerve center manipulation that at the highest levels requires the energy trainning (chi) to be even more effective. This art is present in the major kung fu styles and its main purpose is to maim or kill the opponent. The fact that you and others may have clouded views of kung fu is due to a lot of so called kung fu experts teaching McDonald Kung Fu just as it is happenning with Karate and other martial arts. The fact is that the more simplified an art the easier it is to teach and for one to pretend to be an expert in it. That is what has happened to kung fu and also karate. Anotherthing, traditional Okinawan Karate has many grappling techinques as well as weapons and its purpose was to kill and maim the enemy in the shortest possible time. What do we do now, shall we start an argument on wether Okinawan karate has more depth than Thai boxing? Are you saying that Thai boxing has more depth than any other martial arts on the planet? Because if you are saying that it has more depth than kung fu, then you are implying that. Fortunately for Thai boxing, even in simplified (sport) form it manages to be a more effective fighting system than most simplified forms of Kung Fu. No one is denying that. And if you think that it is the most powerful fighting system on the face of the planet then you are entitled to your opinion. We all choose our paths in life. Wing Chun and Kung Fu. Wing Chun is not the only short range style of kung fu. There are other traditional kung fu styles that are short range styles, eg. Shaolin ShortFist (there is also a Shaolin Longfist)and some styles of Praying Mantis kung fu. Most other major styles mix long and short range techniques and you are unlikely to find a style that is only short range or long range. Styles such as the Shaolin Five animales have a rich range of short and long range techniques and believe me, you wouldn´t want to fight an expert in this art in a dark alley. Also the Wing Chun long pole is not the first weapon I would take to a back -alley fight, compact and narrow forms or not. Some Wing Chun styles even teach darts throwing as long range weapons. If Wing Chun was used by rebels solely because it was created by them means that it was useful to fight wars with it and that is why Wing Chun is a MARTIAL ART. That was its purpose. Are you saying that breaking bricks and tyles are tricks and that no one can do that? Or are saying that they are irrelevant. Well, they are real for one and irrelevant to me as long as the guy breaking the brick is not using the same technique on my head...lol. Peace, Wing Chun Kuen Man Ps. I am going to find out more on Cheung Ng..thanks for the tip.

If our argument is on which style is more powerful then it is a mine is better than yours argument and can go on forever. Don´t confuse the issues. I say that as an art kung fu has more depth than Thai Boxing, as it involves many levels in its trainning and philosophy. That is not to say that Muay Thai does not have depth nor that it is a shallow art. Let me put it this way, every time you say that your art has the most powerfull punches a kung fu or karate stylist will give you examples of their exponents punching through bricks, tyles and even rocks. A kyokushinkai man can refer to Mas. Oyama killing 3 of the 52 bulls that he fought with single punches. A Tiger Claw fighter will tell you that at higher levels their exponents can tear off tree barks with their bare hands. Tree barks = human flesh in a real fight. Skills that you will not learn in "John Smiths Tiger Claw Academy" New Jersey branch. To conclude, if you are happy with your Thai boxing, then good for you. Most people in the martial arts world, including yours truely, know that it is an effective fighting/self defense system. Wing Chun. Is Wing Chun effective in alleyway fithts? Yes. Was Wing Chun used for combat in wars? Yes, that is civil wars. Wing Chun was used by many rebels because of its effectiveness and because of the relative short time it took to master it as opposed to other kung fu styles. "A crash course in Shaolin kung fu" is a description of wing chun that I came across somewhere. What I can say for sure is that Wing Chun was not invented in a day and no one said "hey lets create a style for back alley fights". Wing Chun had existed and was evolving long before it became known by its current name. Though it stresses short range fighting Wing Chun also possess effective long range strikes. This duality is reflected in its weapons as well. The butterfly knives for short range and the long pole for long range combat. Note: You are very unlikely to find a kung fu style that is just long range or just short range. Or just hard or soft. The chinese always have a way of balancing things out. For the same reason you will always find grappling techniques in all major styles of kung fu. These are factors that contribute to the immense depth of this art. Peace, Wing Chun Kuen Man

I have actually seen pictures of these fights in a very interesting book about Thai Boxing and yes they did happen and if my memory serves me right it happened twice in the 1970´s. So this gives Thai Boxing more depth than Kung Fu? Why, because 30 years ago two teams of Kung Fu fighters from Hong Kong lost their matches to Thai boxers in a Bankok ring? I think that it was in the 70´s as well when another Hong Kong sifu fought a Thai boxer and knocked him out during their match, I saw the pictures in a martial arts magazine. My own sifu has taken challenges from many fighters from many styles during his years in France and he told me that Thai boxers and kick boxers in general were among the easier challenges that he had faced.....he found them predictable. My sifu, who is not chinese is chief instructor level in wing chun - mainland China lineage. The thai boxers and kick boxers he faced were not from Thailand, they were French. One more thing, deadly techniques do exist in Kung Fu as they do in many other martial arts. As I have explained before mastering kung fu takes longer and not many people are willing to make that sacrifice or nor have the patience. Maybe you have not come across good kung fu practioners. If you think kung fu does not work, that is fine by me. Maybe if you ever travel to the far east you can ask around and find a good kung fu school and maybe you can challenge the master just like the chinese do when they have doubts about someones martial ability, good luck. I still like Thai Boxing and I consider it an effective martial art for self defence, that is why it was on my top 10 list. Peace, Wing Chun Kuen Man

Let me make a few points. First, Wing Chun IS a powerful system wether you agree or not. It was made to fight wars and it works. I even know martial artists who do not practice it and a few who don´t like it , but at the same time they respect its effectiveness. Second, I don´t have anything against Muay Thai, I respect it, and its effectiveness as a martial art and a self defence system. THAT is why I included it in my top 10 list. Third, yes it is relatively "easy" to get fighting and self defence skills in a relatively short time. That is an ADVANTAGE, specially for people for whom learning to fight quickly is a priority. Another reason that MT was in my top 10 list. Fourth, I did not say that MT has no depth. Infact it has, as it is an art that is centuries old and it works. Now if you ask me if Thai Boxing has more depth than kung fu I would say, NO, it doesn´t. High level kung fu styles have many techiques that do not exist in MT. They are complete arts that incorporate grappling, Chin-na(joint and nervecenter manipulation) and of course internal(chi kung) trainning. The internal kung fu trainning takes many, many years of daily exercise. In time this commitment gives the practitioner the capability to strike and penetrate the opponent with internal energy(chi). At this level, the exponent strikes nerve centers on the body of the "enemy" with fingers,knuckles and from distinct angles to cause various types of damage, including death. Wether this kind of trainning or time span is practical or not for the average martial artist, or wether today´s average martial artist will even be accepted into a school that teaches real kung fu is not the issue. The issue is depth and the above gives kung fu superior depth to that of Muay Thai. I stress again that I am not putting down MT. This is my honest belief based on my knowledge. Peace, Wing Chun Kuen Man

Drunken Monkey, That was my error. I have been chum kiu level for about 5 months. I still don´t know how I made that mistake, but I just noticed my error today and corrected it as fast as I could.

I have joined this thread a little late but here goes my list, and this is according to my personal research. 1. Wing Chun 2. Baji Quan kung fu 3. Shaolin Five Animals 4. Five Ancestor Fist kung fu 5. Traditional Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate 6. Traditional Shorin-Ryu Karate 7. Kyokushinkai 8. Muy Thai 9. Shotokan Karate (traditional, non sport) 10. Praying Mantis kung fu (there are various styles, surely some more deadly than others). My list is based on what I consider as powerful martial arts and not on how fast you will be able to defend yourself in a street fight after iniciating your training. Most of them will take a very long time to master, but once this is achieved the practioner will become a lethal weapon in most of the styles mentioned above. Most chinese and traditional okinawan styles were used to maim and kill the enemy in as short a time as possible. Many traditional chinese styles use high level energy training that gives its exponents incredible penetrative striking power which combined with pressure point knowledge make its exponents such deadly fighters . However, to achieve this one needs to train for many many years and with dedication, with a good master - which in this era of Mcdojos might be almost impossible. The same is true with karate. Real karate training involves a lot of repetition. What us westerners find as too repetitive is nothing compared to what you will find in Okinawa. They train hard, with hard kumite and it is kata, kata, and more kata, and hard makiwara training. From what I know about karate, if you want to be good you have to practise your katas every day many times and train makiwara, yes every day, many okinawans have them at home.. Many okinawan schools consider kata training more important than kumite. And yes I know this kind of training, not to mention a good sensei are difficult to find in the west but it is not impossible. I think what is more difficult is to find the will to train so hard. If one is impatient then yes they should take up bjj, krav maga, muy thai where he/she can learn basic self defence skills in a relatively short amount of time and ofcourse improve on that as he/she trains more, but in my opinion and this is my opinion, if you pick a good kung fu school or traditional karate style and train hard and with patience you will achieve more on the long run as well as health wise - the latter is specially true with practioners of traditional chinese kung fu. Wing Chun Kuen Man