JEM618

Talk about not reading something written. Hmmmn-In language theory, this is called prediction. Experimentation shows that native speakers when participating in randomized cloze practices fill in word based on their assumptions, perceptions, or beliefs on a particular topic and what they think the answer should be. Quite often making a mistake based on what they though they read, or what it ‘should have read’, not actually what they read. Along with fill cloze practices, another interesting test; A group of native and a group of non-native speakers are given a text to read aloud. The text has 25 grammatical errors. When the non-natives read the passage they say all 25 errors, the natives say 15 or less, the mind takes over and automatically predicts correct syntax and smooth out errors. Seems to be something you have just done. Nope, you'll find coutless examples at the bookstore or library - under second Language aquisition. I suggested that you take a pick because you were interpreting, or mis-interpreting, what I had written. How did I post it originally? Did I use "of" or "to"? So how do you understand/interpret that? Pick out the correct one and I give you a explanation. No, both sentences have different meaning and would be used in entirely differnet context. Tell me which one and I'll understand.

Quoted from JL somwhere around the beginning of this thread. To begin with, I'd suggest looking at the original Chinese, not Japanese. Qi [breath] is different from Yi [mental intent] is different from emotional intent (forget the word), etc. Maybe you can further your research by asking one of the forum members who practices Chinese MAs to define 'chi' or 'qi'. Or you could take a trip to the local library or bookstore. BTW: Is phisic a new branch of science or did you mean physics? Hmmmm…. Careful some point out that it is different form Chi/Qi Perhaps: Careful some point out that it is a different form of Chi/Qi. Careful some point out that it is different from Chi/Qi. Don’t get frustrated, I’m just trying to understand. Please explain.

先生！どのぐらい日本語を勉強知するんですか。 Cool! Picked up the passive voice and translated 心 as ‘mind’ not ‘heart’. SR hit the nail on the head.

DM, who's 'he'?

DM - please don't take offense, I said that to make a point - read through this thread and you will clearly understand the problem with the language barrier, i.e., defining 'ki', etc.

Who's he?

No, it's not a matter of take your pick. It's a matter of meaning. It's simple grammar, the sentences are not interchangeable. 'to' and 'of' change the meaning of the sentence completely. If you type a funny little quip at the end of a post and someone READS it, then asks you what you meant, or if you meant something else, you should be able to reply.

No, I meant ‘good’ My Japanese is not good. (good is an adjective, Japanese is a noun, adjectives modify nouns.) Possibly confused with: I do not speak Japanese well. (well is an adverb, speak is a verb, adverbs modify verbs.) Ah, I’m confused; I have a question, you said: Shucks, I am not allowed to speak of specific animals. Does that mean you are not allowed to speak about specific animals? As in, 'Never speak of him again.' (Don’t ever mention his name.) Or does it mean 'I'm not allowed to speak to certain animals.’ As in, 'My mother told me not to speak to strangers.' 'of' and 'to' change the meaning of the sentence, I'd just like a confirmation. 'Talk' would be a better alternative, but I digress. And in either case, who told you not to?

Ye Hi legible: possible to read or decipher: legible handwriting. Certainly, what you are reading is legible. i.e., the leters on the computer screen, but is comprehensible? Now I see where the confusion lies, simply understanding a foreign language requires a firm grasp on your native tongue. Let alone trying to discuss ideas or concepts in it that don’t exist in your native tongue. To that I’ll add ‘ki’ is in intrinsic part of the Japanese language. Snipped from another thread…. The word or concept of 'ki'(気) is used extensively in the Japanese language. Just of the top of my head, these are used in daily conversation, you're sure to hear half of them on a daily basis. 元気 in good spirits, healthy やる気 willing to try 気が強い strong willed 気が小さい timid 気が短い short tempered 病気 sick 気が重い depressed ~ に気がつく become aware of 気をつける be careful of 気にする be concerned about 気がしない don’t fee like doing In one of my older posts I defined 'ki' as the power that can't be seen; you can take a look and see how the kanji is broken down. In English, when we say we are sick, or we are fine, we are talking about our condition. In Japanese, they are talking about the condition of their ‘ki’. 元気 = my ‘ki’ is full, 病気 = my ‘ki’ is sick. Even if you ask a Japanese to define ‘ki’ they are hard pressed to do so. Ask them to explain it in English, it becomes more literal, and the nuance is lost. Ask an English speaker to define of understand the concept and it becomes much more difficult; like trying to stick a round peg in a square hole.

今までも住んでいますよ！兵庫県神戸市住んでいる。先生の 道場は三木市の緑が丘にあります。車で一時間かかります。 Basically: I still live in Japan, in the city of Kobe in Hyogo Prefecture. My teacher's dojo is in Miki city, in a part of town called Midorigaoka. (To get there from my house) takes about an hour by car. Cultural Lesson 101: The names of cities will often give you some idea of what the place is like, sometimes not! Anyway, he lives in a town called ‘three trees’ in a part of town called ‘green hills’. Three guesses… Yup, it’s out in the sticks! I mention the travel time by car because most people travel by train. Also give you an idea where it is located, not easily reached by train. By train it’s close to two hours; changes trains twice and walk from the station for 20 minutes. If I was having the conversation with a Japanese, they would immediately understand my penchant for the art. End of Lesson.　

分かる! 九年前、合気道を習うために来た。今日本に住んでいますよ。 でも日本語がまだまだだめだと思う。　勉強しなければならない！ Edit: Good idea SR. Of course I understand! I came to Japan 9 years ago to study aikido. (lit. for the purpose of studying) I still live here. But even still, my japanese isn't so good. I'd better study more!

Did I miss something? I guess that one of those researcher jokes... わからない。 Oh, allowed is spelled wrong.....

Experimentaion = Experimentation (sp) / belief (noun) = believe (verb) after the passive voice ‘are lead’, this sentence contains an infinitive clause, after the ‘to’ a verb must follow, belief is a noun. What were you saying about HOW it was written… No, that’s not the main fact, or do you mean point. A fact is something believed to be true or real, a point is a major idea or essential part. Did you mean point? What exactly don’t you understand; I asked you that before…. Where does the Bible come into this?? The fact is that they don’t read errors on the page, even though they are to read verbatim, the point is that what people read and what they comprehend are quite often different. (There is a correlation between both studies, so both share relevance.) BIG EXAMPLE HERE: In this very thread, the principals of ‘ki’ are written in both ENGLISH & JAPANESE – There is a watered down translation, the one most English speakers read. There is also a ‘direct’ literal translation, sans grammar, what the Japanese actually says. Ken had a hard time with it, too. GO BACK and read them… See , you don’t read, or remember reading something just a few posts back, you keep asking me to tell you the same stuff. No, it doesn’t sound strange if it’s interpreted properly. After 30 years research, I find it hard to believe you don’t know the difference between ‘do’ and ‘jutsu’; ‘do’ way, or path, literal, the road, ‘jutsu’ means technique or skill. In some isolated cases, it can mean art, but in reference to MAs, justu can only mean technique or skill. kenjutsu = sword technique or skill for fighting aikibujutsu > aikijutsu = martial technique of harmony / technique of harmony jujutsu = gentle technique (these are really literal and are not meant to sound pretty) kendo = the way / path of the sword aikido = the way or path of harmony judo = the gentle way You can simply visit your local book store, go to the language section, and look up the kanji yourself. See, the top three involve a skill, the bottom involve beliefs or a commitment to a certain discipline.

Why? Really, I have to ask, ‘Why?’ Nowhere in this post you replied to do I mention teaching Micael Jordan ‘ki’, or having Micheal Jordan teach ‘ki’, or any principals of ki. Yet in your reply… Michael Jordan has talent in his field. What does him teaching it have any effect on Ki? Does ‘it’ refer to his skill in basketball, or ‘ki’? I wonder… BTW-OT: In language theory, this is called prediction. Experimentation shows that native speakers when participating in randomized cloze practices fill in word based on their assumptions, perceptions, or beliefs on a particular topic and what they think the answer should be. Quite often making a mistake based on what they though they read, or what it ‘should have read’, not actually what they read. Along with fill cloze practices, another interesting test; A group of native and a group of non-native speakers are given a text to read aloud. The text has 25 grammatical errors. When the non-natives read the passage they say all 25 errors, the natives say 15 or less, the mind takes over and automatically predicts correct syntax and smooth out errors. So, I wonder if you are actually reading what I say or are you filtering it with what you believe it says. In any case the analogy, you are shown a skill and asked to reproduce it. In a closed situation, just two people in a gym, you maybe able to. The questions remain the same, can you reproduce it, can you be consistent with it, and can you produce the desired result under extreme pressure. In reference to the four major principals of ‘ki’ development: 心身統一の四大原則 １．臍下の一点に心をしずめ統一する。 ２．全身の力を完全に抜く。 ３．身体の総ての部分の重みを、その最下部におく。 ４．氣を出す。 We practice ‘ki’ exercises, then apply the principles we’ve learned to improve our technique. As in the analogy above, we may be able to practice the principals one by one, through isolated practice, in a controlled environment. Can we produce them consistently, and can we produce them under ‘extreme pressure’; during randori, taigi, a test, on the street? This is where we focus our practice; understanding the principles, and then practicing them under increasingly difficult circumstances until they become completely internalized and natural. Something else, the car analogy, you picked me up on it in one post, I agreed in my reply, and asked if you GOT THE MAIN POINT. And in the very next post, you insist on focusing on the latter half, which we both AGREED on…. Still the question remains unanswered, did you get the main point? A car runs faster with nitrous oxide. (YES, it’s bad for the car, do you understand?) The analogy: when I practice aikido mechanically, I can perform the technique. When I apply principals of ‘ki’ they are much better. It’s funny, I practiced for over 9 years now, and have been teaching for almost 4 years now. I have a club at school and the kids are junior / senior high school students. I teach the same way I was taught. We do ‘ki’ exercises. We practice the techniques mechanically to get the proper form. Then we apply the principals of ‘ki’ to the technique. At the end of the class the kids pair up and perform the technique. The other kids critique. The observers are then asked what was good or bad. They can site at each point of the technique: which principal is used, or should be used, and whether it was used or not. Once you figure it out, it’s not magic, it’s child’s play. As far as 'Ki' and 'Chi', as I've said before, I know what 'ki' is, or what I practice anyway. I've been told 'Chi' is something different. You'll have to find an expert on 'Chi' and ask them. (Not implying I'm a 'ki' expert, BTW.)

Well, it is important to be skeptical and question claims that go against how we currently understand the universe to work. I argee 1000%. Go back to the very first post of this thread and see how ridiculous it has become. You can also look here to see how it just goes round and round without going anywhere. http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=15328

Champion of beating a dead horse! 'I win!!!' What have we accomplished but a tremendous waste of time? Is it me? Isn't it chilly this time of year?

No one gets out alive!!!! Aren't you cold?

Aren't you cold?

Alot of Japanese culture was influenced by China. The Japanese written language is taken from China's written language. SSSh, people that love Japanese culture and etc., may hear and freak Discretion is the better part of valor.... Oh, I get it that's funny!!!! Hahahaha... Sigh...

You tell me, you are the guy with 30 year research under his belt. Buddhism traveled from India to China to Japan. Each country practices it differently, yet it is still classified as Buddhism. Japan had no formal writing system before importing kanji from China. Although most of the kanji remain the same, the reading and meaning are often quite different. 手紙 = in Chinese this means toilet paper, in Japanese it means a letter written by hand. both are pronounced differently.

Not necessarily, I studied BJJ for a few years along with TKD, and in a TKD sparring match, where takedowns, locks, etc, are not allowed, none of the skill I acquired was transferable or improved my TKD sparring. Again, and again, I say the 'ki' I am talking about is natural, not supernatural. And I am not talking about 'magic missing link to fill a void', when I said some thing was missing, I was referring to the way MA were originally taught. During the day of the samurai, they followed rigorous training regimes that were both physical and mental, or ‘spiritual’. (Not talking about faith in God here, as most religious practice in Japan goes against the belief of (one) God. Although in some there is a God for everything.) What I was getting at is that in the west, at more dojos than not, MA have been stripped down to mechanics; punch, kick, block, with little or no training of the mind. I was looking for a way to enhance my training, I believed I had reached my physical peak and wanted to become better and was wondering how to do that. I am talking about something completely testable. Like I said, everyone is caught up in this unbendable arm thing. In shinshintoitsu aikido there are 15 ‘ki’ exercises we must become proficient with to earn rank. For 5th kyu, there are 5 (retested in 4th kyu), For 3rd kyu there are 10, the original 5 and additional 5. (retested in 2nd kyu) For 1st kyu, there are 15, the previous 10 and an additional 5. Since 1st kyu is akin to a pre-black belt test, you don’t become a candidate for the sho-dan test until you can perform all 15 at chu-kyu level. Several of these exercises have 3 levels of difficulty (sho, chu, jo), For example, 上がらない手, is tested on all the kyu tests, but in 5th kyu it’s tested sho, 3rd kyu it’s tested chu, and 1st kyu and sho-dan it is tested at jo) You say we are not talking about anything testable, and I am telling you that it is tested all the time. Please tell me exactly what you don't understand about that.

Excellent points Ken. I PMed this to another forum member a while back: I practiced a few martial arts in the US; Arnis, a little BJJ, and TKD. In the 10 years or so I spent training, not once did any of the teachers touch upon the spiritual or mental aspect of the arts. Even after attaining 2nd Dan in TKD, I still felt something was missing. Although my sparring skills were pretty good, I still felt there was something lacking; I thought there should be more to it that kicking and punching. It took all of 20 minutes with a teacher that incorporated ‘ki’ as part of training to realize that this was the ‘missing link’. Before coming to Japan I would spar regularly 2-3 times a week with good but not great results. After two years in Japan, I returned to my TKD dojo in the states for a visit. And I was asked if I wanted to spar in class, with TKD of course. After a two year layoff from sparring with practice TDK practice limited to stretching and throwing some kicks every now and then, I sparred better than I ever had. I paired of with several of my old partners and other students that had moved up in rank while I was gone, all of them I might add, sparring 2-3 days a week during my absence. How was that possible? How was I able to improve my sparring by not sparring? I used ‘ki’ for lack of a better term. (It is what I used based on what I believe ‘ki’ is as opposed to what someone else may perceive it to be - which is why there are so many debates over the whole ‘ki’ issue.) Ueshiba, the founder of aikido, has several ‘uchi deshi’, or full time live in students. When he felt he had finally developed that art enough, he decided it was time to spread his teaching all over the world, starting in the West. He chose Koichi Tohei, one of his finest students. Not only was he a great technician but a tactician as well; he could execute any technique flawlessly and even better still, adapt it to any situation. So Tohei headed off to Hawaii performing demonstrations for the Hawaiian Police and the U.S. military. Tohei was sadly disappointed with the results. In Japan he was one of the best, even though he was small, even for a Japanese, standing only 5’6”, he was unbeatable. Imagine someone standing 5’6” facing off with highly trained police or military personnel with a 100 pound weight advantage. For the most part, he did OK, but he really had some trouble with ‘the western giants’. He returned to Japan despondent coming to the realization that physical strength and the best technique are not the complete package. After some soul searching and consideration of his training prior to his joining Ueshiba, he decided to incorporate ‘ki’ training to supplement what Ueshiba had taught him. A few years later, he returned to Hawaii for more demonstrations and this time around was truly untouchable. In fact, the Hawaiian police were so impressed that incorporated aikido as a part of police training for all their officers. So, that being said, I would have to say, ‘Yes’. I assume your avatar is a picture of you. And from what you’ve said, you just turned 31. I used to look like you 9 years ago, rock solid and buffed, but having turned 40 this past summer, well, I just don’t look like that anymore… . So what would happen if we were to square off? I don’t know, honestly. But I must say, pound for pound you’d have the weight advantage, and you are 9 years younger than me. Conventional wisdom would say the 40 year old guy is gonna get his * kicked, and that might be true, a fact based on perception that can’t be disputed. However, if I was cornered, with no chance of escaping or avoiding the conflict, I would have to say having studied ‘ki’ for so long that the odds might be a little better than average than if I was the average ‘Joe’. [PLEASE!!! Don’t misinterpret this as a challenge or an, ‘I’m better than you’ or ‘I could kick your butt’ kind of thing.] (If you want to read an interesting story, search for the post about the day I met my sensei. I was 31 at the time and he was 57 and I got my a** kicked) Well, according to Tohei, we are born with ‘ki’ and each of us can develop it to its maximum potential, so in a way we are all ‘ki’ masters. I.e., masters of our own ‘ki’. Simply put, if we both own dogs, and I train my a lot, and you don’t train your at all, well, I’ll get more out of my dog, so to speak. Well, a kick is a kick, and a punch is a punch. (Not putting down other arts, but many of them are based simple mechanics, right?) Just look at the story about Tohei. He practiced the original style of aikido, what’s known as aiki-kai aikido, and on his first trip to Hawaii, was disappointed. After applying the principals of ‘ki’ to aikido, he went back and did much better. You can also look at my more humble story about returning to my TKD dojo and doing well after a two year layoff. And, I must add, the sparring was strictly TDK, no aikido, I just applied the principals I had studied. Again, thanks for the interesting post, Ken, you got my brain in overdrive! Have a good day.

Like I said, Ueshiba put it best: Rely not on the brush (written word) or mouth (oral explaination) for understanding the technique. Attain enlightenment through practice. To see what I am up against, please choose the most difficult technique or form you have ever learned and then type it out, a set of instructions, if you will, so that when I read it, I will be able to understand the instructions and perform the technique exactly as it should be done, with out actually seeing any pictures, or video clips, or 'live instruction'. With nothing in my hand but your set of instructions, would you feel confidant that I would be able to read the instructions, practice by myself without any feed back and then perform the technique exactly to your expectations? Here I am trying to explain a principal or concept, something that is to be applied to a technique to enhance its effectiveness. What you are asking me to do is more like explaining the formula for hydroplaning based on vehicle weight, speed, tread pattern, and water depth. And give you a formula that will accurately predict at what speed and at what point a vehicle will lose tread contact with the pavement based on all the variables. Possible, I assure you, but not as easy as the ‘take away two apple’ scenario. So, in the analogy of someone trying to explain the existence of Christ or God, then the writings in the Bible, cannot give any understanding? Ha! The crux of the mystery! It certainly can be explained to those are at least willing to listen or try to understand. There are those who say they don’t believe in God and don’t want to hear anything about it. And there are those who say they are willing to listen, they listen and go from there. But let’s not get caught up with the God analogy, because that will throw the whole topic off. ‘No one has ever seen God, so their belief is based on faith, not fact, etc.’ Let’s go back to the math and hydroplaning example; there are specific formulas that can’t predict an outcome, facts. Now if I tell you that I can tell you at exactly what speed a vehicle will lose contact with the road surface based on all the variables plugged into a formula, and you refuse to listen, saying it’s not possible, or some kind of trick, well that’s the end of it right? But if you say, OK, show me, that opens up the doors. Now, before you get all excited and ask me to prove ‘ki’ is real, and get my million dollar prize, stop. If you want to continue that discussion, let’s do it in a logical gentlemanly fashion. Cheers