stoneheart

Looks like you are studying a mixed system that has kata from a variety of sources. You might still be learning excellent karate if the instructor is strict about correct technique and form. My main complaint with these mish-mash styles is that they indicate the person who came up with them never achieved high understanding of a single style. Kata are supposed to build on one another and you should not attempt a new one until you master the concepts the previous one was supposed to teach. It's somewhat odd to use one of the Pinan kata along with General Choi's patterns (Chun gi, etc). If you look at all five Pinans, their influence is clear in General Choi's work. I'd rather practice the five Pinans and be done with it, than learning Chun Gi, Dan Gun, Do San, Won Hyo, Yul Gook, Toi Gye, Hwa Rang, and Choong Moo.

If you want to practice multiple styles of karate, at least pick styles that are relatively different from each other. Don't practice, for example, Matsubayashi shorin-ryu simultaneously with Kobayashi shorin-ryu. You're bound to confuse things. I actually do something similar right now. Uechi-ryu with Goju-ryu. I don't have too much trouble keeping them separate (for now), although I do perform the wrong version of sanchin at the wrong place from time to time. I suggest training in a grappling art along with your current karate style instead. That would be a more logical combination.

It wouldn't work out. She's a teenager, and although she is very good technically, she still needs the motivation of group classes to keep working at it. These days I train mostly Uechi and Goju kata anyway, not TKD, and kata can be boring to the younger set who are looking for interaction with classmates.

Short classes combined with low standards = poor quality of instruction. That formula can be used by many different studios, not just the ATA. They just seem to be a major offender since they are so large. I understand there are good ATA studios... just none I have seen yet. By the way, I have no problems with taekwondo schools calling themselves karate. Shotokan karate is a huge influence in TKD, after all.

I've seen a number of discussions where people with backgrounds in physics and kinesiology have disputed the effectiveness of the sine wave to create power. I also find the up and down exaggerated motion to be quite ugly, and when on earth would you find the time to execute sine wave if you happen to be in a real fight?! Hip twist at least is economical and logical. Sine wave. Yuck. I really think General Choi came up with it as a way of differentiating his TKD from others'. I think that most of the people who don't like the sine wave are the ones who have seen it over-exaggerated. The original sine wave, I believe, is more sublte than what some schools are teaching now. As for its effectivness, I feel that it is neither here nor there. Some will swear by it, and some will not. Well, just look at the ITF form clips on the natkd.com site. It may be an exaggerated example, but that's precisely what I think of when I think of sine wave technique. The more subtle spring leg (kenpo people call it "marriage of gravity") is indeed a key to many Chinese systems, but all of the sine wave people I've come into contact with do it exactly like the guy on the video clips.

I'm no expert on the style, but I have seen some Budokan people perform kata at a tournament. They did the Heian series and called them "Heians" so they undoubtedly descend from Shotokan somehow.

I've seen a number of discussions where people with backgrounds in physics and kinesiology have disputed the effectiveness of the sine wave to create power. I also find the up and down exaggerated motion to be quite ugly, and when on earth would you find the time to execute sine wave if you happen to be in a real fight?! Hip twist at least is economical and logical. Sine wave. Yuck. I really think General Choi came up with it as a way of differentiating his TKD from others'.

I more prefer a principle-based method of teaching. Sure we have the "correct" way of doing things, but much of that is really just stylistic and had no real martial importance. Thus, I don't necessarily care how you form your block or strike as long as you understand how to throw it with speed, power, and accuracy even under less than ideal conditions.

It's hard to say what the cut off point is. I don't really have a problem with a 15 year old shodan. It's not my choice but I can at least understand it. I DO have a probem with a 12 year old nidan - it doesn't matter if he can do the form or if he knows the physical mechanics of his style. When I teach professionally, I will have a 18 year old requirement for shodan. I will consider awarding a junior black belt, although it will need to be understood that it is not a "permanent" rank or belt.

Laurie, I am so glad you've found a new (old) dojo to train in. I've been reading your posts for a couple of years now, and I respect your committment to come back time and again even after getting dealt a setback or two. I know you will do well in Shotokan, and you'll probably love the emphasis on correct form. Kihon, kihon, kihon!

The good news is that you can easily teach yourself the Palgwes if you already know the Taeguks. Just buy a copy of the Official Taekwondo Training Manual. It's around 11 bucks at amazon.com

Sounds like you are practicing some American Taekwondo Association forms or hyung. Songham and In-Wha are the words I think you are spelling phonetically.

As someone who has sampled lots of karate uniforms recently, I'd point out that the ProForce Ultra Heavyweight is actually very decent for the $60 US it costs. It's cut generously and the cloth is brushed, so it is comfortable from the first wearing. Brushed cotton will not last as long as canvas, but at $60 you can afford to replace your uniform more frequently. I do like the premium brands, but ProForce has a quality product for its price point.

I believe both the Tae Guk and Palgwe forms were designed by a committee of TKD masters. If true, that explains the "hollow" feeling they have to me. Frightmaster, any school or organization with a lineage to the old ITF will practice the Chang Hon forms. James Benko's organization uses them as does Chuck Sereff's. Like I said, I like them very much... Just please leave out the sine wave movement!

I find the Tae Guk and Palgwe forms to be the ugliest with no mystery in the applications. These forms are very much what you see is what you get. The Chang Hon forms resemble the Pyong On forms used in TSD, but that's no coincidence since General Choi was a Shotokan stylist. bushido_man96, you could pick up any number of bunkai (bun seoh) from students of shotokan, wado-ryu, tsd, soo bahk do that use variations of the Pyong On/Heian/Pinan kata. In fact, you can even delve more deeply into the Okinawan versions for some fascinating interpretations. Just ask any Shorin-ryu guy (and I believe there are a couple on these forums). The Chang Hon and Pyong On forms are by far the most substantive out of the mainstream kata practiced by Korean stylists. As for the Songahm sets, I like them. They were deliberately designed to emphasize kicking, so they suit TKD well. As with the Tae Guk and Palgwe, the interpretations are straight forward. These days when I practice kata, I usually do some from Uechi or Goju. Both systems teach short distance power strikes and that's a facet I am emphasizing right now.

I recommend some private lessons with a qualified sensei before even looking at videos. Fly if you have to, but I think you could engrain some bad habits which would be difficult to correct later unless you have proper instruction with the basic grips and stances. Kobudo is invaluable practice for the serious karate-ka. Many of the movements in kata and kihon practice are clearly related to kobudo work, and weapons practice will only help your empty hand and vice versa. Many aikido students study the sword for this exact reason.

It is a hammer fist in Kang Uk Lee's TSD book.

Yes, Syphax, that's why I said SELDOM, not ALWAYS.

Agreed, but I wonder there's a corrollary to that. "The most expensive school is seldom the best." Certainly this has been my experience thus far.

Kennyshoots, I have a size 5.5 Tokon America that I love. I'm only 5'10'' and I weigh about 200 lbs, so I am built more heavily than yourself. The Tokons seem to be cut generously.

McMillanTKD, if you are not adverse to switching styles, I know of 2 different Goju-ryu groups and 1 Uechi-ryu group in Austin that have very traditional instruction with kobudo included. One of the Goju-ryu groups has some survivors from that shito-ryu school you are probably referring.

Syphax, we just have a difference in philosophy and that's fine. I do not study only the Korean arts, so there's no question I don't particularly value some of the outward trappings found in American TKD. Let me tell you, my current Goju instructor who is native Okinawan would say something like "Reverse punch not so good - Talk less, Practice More" if he saw the guy that was trying to sell my niece on his Leadership Club. He is a superb karate-ka as well as a teacher and I know for a fact he had no "Leadership training". I do not mean to imply that the physical aspect should be all a person works on, but I do think it is futile for a beginner (less than 2 years training in my book) to even worry about motivational techniques, etc. A beginner needs to work on his stances and his footwork and then his strikes and distancing. "Leadership training" is out of place at the dojang in my opinion, and it really seems like they're trying to train more multi-level instructors than really teach TKD.

Syphax, I appreciate your thoughts. The leadership training in martial arts is very much an American invention, and I can't say I care for it. If I want to read some Dale Carnegie, I can find the self-help section of Barnes and Noble for myself. I think it's crazy to spend so much time in class on memorizing or chanting slogans or giving high fives, particularly when classes are only 45 minutes long. I agree martial arts can have mental and spiritual aspects, but show me a guy who goes on and on about being a leader and I'll show you someone who needs some makiwara work. Taekwondo at the gup levels should be all about the physical training anyway. I submit that higher level awareness can only come when you are intimate with your body and what it can do first. Practice, practice, and then practice some more.

I believe $60 for a color belt test fee is outrageous, especially since this is one of those places that have "Recommended" and "Decided" belt ranks. When I trained in TKD years ago under the Jhoon Rhee/Allen Steen lineage, we simply had gup ranks, and classes lasted 2 hours. I really think 1 hour is the absolute minimum amount of time for a proper warmup and basics practice while leaving enough time to work on forms or other topics. There are no ITF schools in town - it doesn't matter what flavor of ITF. There are some dojangs that practice the Chang Hon forms, but they are more the cheerleading, self-esteem building types of programs. Martials arts shouldn't be about "Building Tomorrow's Leaders Today". It should be about hard work, sweat, and learning to defend yourself on the street.

My niece recently moved to Austin, where I live. She is a red belt in one of the ITF splinter groups and she wants to continue to train in taekwondo, but there is no dojang locally affiliated with her old group. I've been trying to look out for her by taking her to visit the various dojangs in town to make sure she gets what she is looking for, namely a program that is both fun and challenging for a junior but also provides legitimate self-defense instruction. Let me tell you, folks, it's hard to find schools that are worth a darn. Virtually every dojang is on the 45 minute class block time and is run by some guy in his twenties, who invariably tell me that their instructor is the exalted Mr. So-and-So who is a 7th Dan. I especially love it when the used car salesman, er, TKD instructor, tells you all about his free uniform special but neglects to tell you how much monthly dues really are as well as testing fees until you ask. Meanwhile, the people in the classes I watch often wear high rank yet have poor fundamentals. I saw a 2nd Dan who couldn't have been older than 12 and there were plenty of reds and red/blacks who had trouble staying balanced on basic line-kicking. Has it come to this? $60 color belt test fees and games of dodgeball during class? I'm tempted to tell my niece to change styles altogether.