Sasori_Te

I agree, let's get rid of kata, bowing and the uniforms too. We can all come to class in sweats, shake hands, beat each other senseless with whatever might be handy and go home. Sounds like fun, but it's not karate.

Tote doesn't get it because he doesn't want it. That's fine. His opion is his opinion and there's obviously no altering that. You can learn something from everyone, even if it's what not to do or how not to be. But that's just my opinion.

You tell 'em Shotokanwarrior

Black Dragon. I've got 2 different dan rankings a first in shin Keichu Ryu Shorin Ryu (My first style) and a third in Sasori Te Karate Jutsu, along with a couple other kyu ranks in different styles. And I can honestly tell you that my belts don't mean anything to me. I value the style not the uniform. I can also tell you that for 100 percent certain a punk with a gun or knife on the street is not going to be impressed by a belt rank.

Ahh Hohan, you're getting at the heart of it now. Proven. How would any of us know the historical effectiveness of our respective arts? What is written? Word of mouth? Bottom line is, if you weren't there you can't know for sure. and, I'm not really sure why everyone thinks because something is older that it must be better. Or because it was originally an Asian that introduced the art that it must be better. I like the Shorin Ryu style but it's not because of where or when it came from. It's because of my experience with the effectiveness of the techniques (for me personally). The bottom line is, any art is worthless if you can't make it work for you. You have to make it your art. But that is my opinion.

Submission Fighter you're right. They're your' feet and they're attached to your neck, so you can use them any way that you please.

Shotokan Warrior, you need to loo at the available styles, see if you think you might enjoy one of them and go with that. It's not the style it's the person that matters. Good luck

Hohan-1, I'm neither defending or suppoerting your opinion, but shouldn't we point those perceptions at ourself before we point them at someone else. I agree, we can all become brainwashed, including you. We are all "Westerners" trying to figure out an ancient art by stumbling around in semi-darkness. That's why were here talking to one another. I don't recall Hakutsurukan being a classical style, therefore it too must be a Western interpretation of what we think karate is supposed to be. Hakutsurukan, White Crane style, if I'm correct in my translation, is it more akin to the Southern Chinese boxing styles? Just curious. To each his own and good luck to us all, God knows we'll need it in a real fight anyway. P.S. Are you a Okinawan and karate historian that you're so sure that the katas that you practice are the exact ones that were passed down by the old masters without changes being made by someone else? I've done tons of research and I'm more unsure now than I was when I started. But I'm lucky I think. At least I realize I don't know.

That's how it was for me. One day I was just doing it. After I noticed I was doing it was when I started analyzing it. Those reps aren't for nothing.

Excellent point GrrrArg. Your first white belt is infinitely more important than all the black belts that you may have, combined.

Excellent Beer Monster. This is what karate is to me. What I believe it was meant to be. Instead of being merely taught a series of techniques to be memorized not unlike programming a computer, by studying one kata you are forcing yourself to THINK! Thinking for ourselves seems to have become overrated in our society. Studying one kata allows us to wrap our minds around the techniques and the myriad possible variations. This is how you continue growing in karate. So we need to dust off the old brains and get to work.

What I mean is every instructor that I know that owns a commercial school has had to compromise their art and the way it has been taught to them in order to keep students. There are several reasons for this compromise that actually goes beyond the scope of the discussion here.

O.K. here's my personal take on "traditional" martial arts. Everyone seems to throw around the word traditional a lot. After MUCH conversation with my teachers as well as some high ranking other folks that I've had the honor to meet and train with, I've come to this purely personal understanding. What was traditional to the old masters were techiniques that could be extracted from kata that worked for them. The weapons that they used, the sword, kama, bo, eku bo, nunchaku, tonfa ... etc., were implements that were readily available to them during the course of their day. The sword was the mark of the Bushi or warrior class and was seen as a sign of that title. So, I feel that the best traditions of the martial arts are to extract from the kata the techniques and mmeanings that you can make work for you. This is what makes the karate your own. The traditional weapons should also be things that are readily available and easy for you to access anywhere or anytime (including on a plane). These weapons for me include the cane, small blade knife, leather belt, self defense keychain ..... etc.. I still practice with the bo and sai, as well as Iaido sword techniques alond with escrima. These provide the dexterity and fine motor skills that are required to manipulate my modern choices. However, I always make sure to have plenty of practice with the weapons that I will have with me. This is just my humble opinion of course.

Malkosha made a point that I like to make continually myself. It all depends on the person. I personally would never do a high kick or a "trick" kick in a real fight, but I know that I'm too slow with those particular kicks to get away with them. I too had a friend that taught Hapkido that most likely could get away with a well placed high kick in a real fight. He was VERY good at a multitude of the strangest kicks that I've ever seen.

As I said before Andrew Green, I stopped doing kata for over 2 years. As I also said before, you don't have karate without kata. You can have a fighting style or a self defense system, but without kata karate doesn't exist. It all depends on what you want from your martial arts experience. Some folks want just the topical or physical side and this is okay. Martial arts can be many things to many people, but I stand firm that it's not karate without kata.

That's more along the lines of the answer that I was looking for. Thank you Goju1.

Huh? What is the question?

I have a good friend that is a Sensei in American Kenpo. The style has more similarities to Chinese Gung Fu than it does to Japanese Karate but it is an interesting and potentially effective. I think you would probably enjoy the differences rather than be hindered by them. I say give it a try. Good luck!

*Shotochem* wrote: I train with many religious people in our dojo. Some of them do not bow due to religious objections. They are not any less a karateka than I. When engaged in drills or sparring with each other we exchange a nod of respect then begin. The problem is not the respect it is the humility. I think respect and humility are very difficult to separate from one another anyway. People that have no humility for anyone except god by whatever name you call him ( I am Christian also, but I have no problem respecting others ) tend to have no respect for anyone else except maybe themselves and then not always that. Bowing is way to show respect and give a tribute to the old masters at the same time. You're not worshipping anyone while doing this. It is my personal belief that these people have no true understanding of the art that they practice. Of course I always make a point to explain this to my new students. As I said before, it's a part of the art that I find promotes several good qualities. If my new students have a problem with that then they are always more than welcome to train somewhere else. No harm no foul. If I seem to contradict myself here I'll be more than happy to explain in my next post.

Let me clarify further ..... What do you consider to be the component that make up traditional martial arts. Notice I said traditional and not classical arts. I define classical arts as the original Okinawan arts such as Shuri Te, Naha Te, Tomari Te and so on. What traditions from these "foundation arts" should be brought forward to make up the newer arts, in your opinions. What do you think the old masters would want to see happening in the arts today?

Thank you for the apology Beer Monster but no need really. It's only a friendly discussion after all.

You're quite right beer monster. I should know better than that as it's my post originally.

Thank you all for your input. I'm finding the comments very interesting.

The old karate masters from Okinawa never included kicks above the waist nor did thay do fancy spin kicks. These techniques only became popular ( in karate )after karate was introduced to Japan. The old masters were said to believe that to kick higher than your own waist was to destroy your base. In other words you minimize your balance by being on one foot for too long. I'm interested in some other opinions, especially from the TKD practitioners.

Jushin made apoint that needs to be further stated. If you do by some chance stick with it and open your own school, make sure that you include a gym or some other such activity so that making money from martial arts isn't what you're depending on. I have several friends that are school owners. I owned one previously. I didn't do it as my soul source of income because I want to teach my art, not some twisted version that invariably happens when you open a commercial school. The reason I say this is because all of my friends that do have commercial schools end up selling out their art to some degree to keep the money coming in. The bottom line with a commercial school is profit. You have to keep your customers happy and coming back to spend money with you or you go hungry. Or better yet, your kids go hungry. The best my friends hope for these days is to further their own training in a direction that they want to go. They certainly don't get to teach the way they would like.