Sasori_Te

I'm not trying to intentionally be disrespectful. However, I did ask for anyone to address my question plainly with a logical argument without the great and wise karate cliches. I still haven't got that yet. Ninjanurse, I see the applications for the techniques I'm just alluding to the fact that you have to over commit for these spinning techniques. If you miss you are in a WORLD of trouble. I'm also referring to a real world scenario, not a dojo training session. I realize that there is always more to learn and that is what I'm attemting to do. I would like to understand a practical use for these techniques on the street against a trained opponent. I still practice the techniques but I don't employ them except occasionaly in free sparring. I don't completely throw away techniques because I disagree with them. I just tend to shelve them until I can find a valid use for them. All I want to know is a practical use for any spinning technique. What I'm looking for is an instance of a spinning technique where you wouldn't over commit. I'm just trying to have a discussion here and perhaps learn something.

KotegasiNeo, My "conjecture" (the proper spelling btw), comes from 10 years of teaching and research into the martial arts. Where does your information come from? I'm guessing that you got your information from your instructor. Sorry, but I'm going to have to go with Drunken Monkey on this one.

I disagree to a point. The human body is not a baseball, golfball or any other type of ball that are specifically designed to bounce off of another object. Hitting a heavy bag or water core bag will give you a much better analogy. A person's body is made largely of water. What happens when you drop a pebble into a puddle? The waves will rush outward from the point of impact. When the waves reach the edge of the puddle they will bounce off and return to the point of origin. The same ripple effect happens with the human body. When you punch a specific point on the human body, especially in the trunk area, the energy from the punch will return back to the point of impact. If the hand is still there it will cause a dampening effect by absorbing the return energy. If you punch into and "through the target and quickly remove the fist, the energy from the punch will stay inside the target and will cause greater damage until the waves dissipate. You can see the effect that I'm talking about if you tap a medium sized water balloon once keeping your fingers on the ballon after the tap and once pulling the fingers away quickly. I'll take any questions now.

Still no one addresses my other points. I'm disappointed.

There are no hidden techniques in kata. There are only different levels of interpretation and understanding. The more you study and train the more meanings you can derive from kata.

Just a quick piece of advice. I'm not knocking your instructor, he may be a great instructor and a great person. It has been my experience that NO ONE is worthy of blind devotion. Note I did not say devotion alone. You may be setting yourself up for a hard fall if you continue to follow without thought or question. It happened to me with my first instructor. Be very careful and think for yourself. It never hurt anyone to do their own research.

Hmmm. Funny, I've worked in corrections in Louisiana and Texas and the techniques I mentioned always worked for me. I speak from experience not just what I think might work. In the 4 years total that I worked in corrections not once did I ever see an officer wrestling with an inmate like BJJ or TJJ.

I'd stay away from these guys. Not only is the style head a sham, but how often are you going to be in a situation where you have time to prepare yourself to receive a strike?I don't recall an attacker ever giving me the chance to prepare myself (not that I didn't ask them to stop so I could. It seems they were really rude that way.). Sacharnoski got a degree from a diploma mill and calls himself a doctor. *L* He's also back-pedalled a few times on some of his credentials. Hmmmm.

I'll say this again if I already said it. All fear stems from a fear of death and the unknown. Death and birth are the only things in life you get to experience only once. It's almost instinctual to fear it. For example... I am afraid of falling. I'm not afraid of heights because I like flying and repelling. As long as I know I can't fall I'm OK. If I weren't afraid to die why would I be afraid of falling? At least that's what some psychiatrists think. It sounds reasonable to me so I tend to buy it.

I wouldn't try learning an internal style from a book. At the very least you should have someone knowledgeable that you can turn to to ask questions about any internal training that you do. Maybe you could use a combination of books, video, phone and e-mail IF you already are familiar with some energy work or another internal style.

Well, being that it is medically proven that the body utilizes bioelectricity in the form of brainwaves and signal transmission for the nervous system I'd say, as with most arguments, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I had a doctor in a class tell me that some pressure points do not lie over any major nerve centers or arteries that would cause a reaction if struck. He didn't have a medical explanation for it. But, like him, I don't believe there is anything mystical or magical about it. The body is a machine, a device that allows our minds to do physical work. All machines need a source of power. We just don't happen to understand that power source completely yet. At least not from a Western medical perspective. In the same breath I don not buy into all of the mysticism surrounding internal styles like Xingyi and Baguazhang.The body works the way it works. You don't need magic to activate internal power.

ESA I understand what you are talking about. This is the way I was trained in the spinning back kick too. By definition of turning your head you will lose sight of your opponent for a split second. Also, no one has addressed any of the balance issues that I brought up. I know that balance is an issue with any kick, but spinning kicks and techniques in general will amplify this effect because your center of gravity will raise because of the re-positioning of the feet combined with the inertia from the spin. Think about a top. If you tap it while it is sitting still it just sits there. If you tap it while it's spinning it in effect bounces of the contact because of it's own rotational inertia and because the center of gravity has been moved higher. In martial arts combine this effect with darkened conditions and uneven ground and you would have a VERY difficult situation.

To the original post... Huh????? What has your instructor been teaching you. Better question, what hasn't he been teaching you? You may really need to look into a new instructor if you've been training for over 3 or 4 years and think this way. You only need to watch Master Seiyu Oyata perform kata and then the bunkai/ oyo to see that EVERY move in a kata has an application. It is by no means a dance much less religious.

Get in close and jam up their techniques. Feint low and attack high. Most of all, don't let their height intimidate you. Use the size difference to your advantage.

This is a real question......Why would anyone ever turn their back on an opponent to perform a spinning manuever? I would really like to hear some of the philosophy behind these spinning techniques that have a basis in self defense and not sparring. I had to learn spinning back kick, hook kick, crescent , heel and backfist just to name a few. I was young and never thought to question the validity of these techniques. Now, as I get older, I don't see the point. You generate more power, but at what cost? Balance is minimized along with being over committed and momentarily losing sight of the opponent. Please justify these techniques if you can.

You will also epend energy anytime that you have to absorb a blow from an opponent. To me covering is only a small step up from receiving the full brunt of the blow. It is much better to parry and redirect/ counter.

I was in the army for 4 years from 1987 - 1991. I was with the 1st Infantry Division the entire time. I was in Desert Shield/ Storm. THey gave us hand to hand in Infantry basic and advanced training. We also got to brush up from time to time over the 4 years that I spent. I started training karate and jiu jitsu with a platoon mate of mine because I found the basic hand to hand course VERY lacking in practicality. The Rangers, Special Forces, Navy Seals and Delta forces all train in more advanced techniques but they don't train in a particular style as a group. They do what works. Hand to hand is not as important to the "modern" military as it once was but in a fight you never know what might happen. I like to always try and prepare myself for those little eventualities.

Okay...you guys are talking about the average joe. Well, here's another scenario. What if you happen to have a job that puts you in harms way? Let's say like the police or a correctional officer? You have to deal with people literally twice your size sometimes. Sometimes semmingly bigger than that. Would you prefer a grappling art or a striking art in that situation? I personally found jiu jitsu and karate worked well together. I'm not talking about this BJJ stuff that goes to the ground everytime. I'm talking finger locks, wrist locks, elbow locks( these were more difficult on the bigger guys) and certain sweeping and takedown techniques that I learned in karate. It's funny , I also learned all of the locks in karate too, except for the finger locks. I learned that from a small circle jiu jitsu guy. Granted that you are in a limited response environment. You can't just fire off a kick or a punch to quickly end a situation. You have to consider the over-all safety of the inmate.

Have you ever noticed that when you move from a ready position into any stance, the stance tends to move you out of the way of the incoming attack? Stances are transitory movements used to avoid and evade while giving you maximum power to counter.

Anyone can be swept from any stance where the feet are the base of the stance. You just need the skills with the techniques and proper timing. I personally like using L6 or L7 just above the inside ankle. Nothing like a little pain to make you forget about your balance.

"passive blocking"?? only works for sparring situations. In a fight where actual blows are traded you may very well receive broken bones for your effort. I saw a guy have his ulna literally shattered trying to cover from against a kick (and that was in a class setting). I still maintain that there is no such thing as a block just for the sake of blocking a technique. My philosophy is in my signature.

It's in my signature. A block is a strike is a lock is a throw....

I think you may be over-simplifying some of the examples that you use, but I agree with you for the most part. You've probably struck a few nerves around here though. *L*

I saw his Discovery Channel special. At first glance it looked impressive, but as someone else said, they huffed and puffed to get ready for the incoming technique. They all what was coming and where it was going to. THe only thing they didn't know was when. If they ever get into a real situation they may do alright if the attacker gives them a play by play, other than that they would be in serious trouble. Rod Sacharnoski comes off like a big fraud. From what I've seen on the web he is. I always step back and closely examine anyone that wears outrageous costumes to train. It always makes me think they're playing dress up and/ or let's pretend.

Well, even though it is slightly off the topic, let me put my 2 cents in. I've trained with a guy in Phoenix named Ernie Mayer and he is EXCELLENT with all sorts of bladed weapons. We started the very first training lesson with him telling me what knife attack he was going to perform and where he was going to cut me. He told me to do whatever it was that I was trained to do. By the time I had parried the knife and grabbed the weapon arm to control it he had "cut" me more than a half dozen times. Now, you might say this was lack of training on my part but I have seen him do this to several higher legitimate dan ranks and the result was the same. You really don't ever want to have to deal with someone that truly knows how to use a knife unless you have a gun and some distance to use it. Other than that, be prepared to bleed some.