OneKickWonder

I think many people fail to realise their potential. Many new martial artists for example believe their potential is to to move like martial artists do in the movies. Ie they believe they will do in one attempt what a stunt man on wires can look like he's done, after a few dozen takes, and then edited and augmented with CGI. Many such new martial artists fail to realise that they have the real potential to not actually look like they're doing very much at all. They fail to even see that balance, breathing, timing, positioning, judgement, calmness of mind, and an intricate understanding of the subtleties of how the body moves and works count for infinitely more than pulling off a beautiful tornado kick for example. I think some clubs don't help in this respect. A curriculum that places more emphasis on the really showy stuff than the subtle stuff for example will turn out black belts that can raise a round of applause from a crowd of spectators but couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag if caught in the middle of a bar brawl. I think true potential is not in technique at all. I think it's in a thorough understanding of the principles of movement and judgement behind those techniques.

Is the duct tape to tape the bottom of the trousers tight shut in case the loperamide fails to work?

In about the first 5 mins, we see a KO from a jumping front kick. That's not the basic snap kick I'm on about. By 6:50 we've seen several basic front snap kicks. Not a single one of which had any effect. Two of which were effectively blocked with a downward sweeping action. The man doing the blocking seemed to intentionally avoid the toes. I can understand why. Strong toes into the wrist would hurt, but a slight variation on this block would have seen the kickers toes put out of action for a while. 8.23 a KO from a basic front snap kick. Without doubt, it can be effective sometimes. As a side note, I like how that Machida chap bows to his opponent after the match. It's nice to see some respect in combat sports. Too often that respect seems to be missing. Overall, the video hadn't convinced me. A very well trained fighter pulled it off, as anyone can. But that same very fighter showed that it is often futile, and quite high risk. I observed from that video that he threw at least as many roundhouse kicks as front kicks, and most of those round house kicks were taken very seriously even though on this occasion they were not decisive. Of the front kicks thrown, most were variants of the basic front snap kick, with most front kicks proving futile. The scissor kick version is devastating, and although fairly high risk to the kicker, carries enough momentum to be much higher risk to the opponent. The decisive front snap kick near the end was flawless. With risk effectively mitigated by the distraction with the hands. Circumstances allowed it to work effectively. That won't happen too many times.

I think against an untrained fighter it has a chance of being effective. A trained fighter, in any one of many styles, will expect it and have a myriad ways to block, trap or evade it, and the reactions needed to give them a credible chance of doing so. Adding some forward thrust turns it into a different kick to the basic front snap kick. With forward thrust it becomes very powerful and relatively low risk. I like this version of the front kick. I've practiced this in several different styles. But it's not the basic front snap kick in was asking about. Indeed. Fair point. But as martial artists we take the art of fighting, and study it almost as a science. Perhaps consciously, perhaps instinctively, on some level I think we all think in numbers. How much energy will this technique consume, how fast is it, how powerful is it, how likely is it to be effective, how effective, what is the likelihood of it missing the target, what is the risk, what is the reward etc. I don't mean over thinking it. I just mean that as martial artists we are more cold and calculating than the average drunken neanderthal in a bar brawl. By that token, I personally think that the front snap kick, the basic version, has very low effectiveness for its relatively high risk.

I'm not claiming to know better than the Japanese sensei you refer to, perhaps there's some subtle difference between the Japanese version of the roundhouse and the Korean version, but I can get as much traction as I need to deliver a powerful roundhouse without having good traction on the ground. We don't put any twisting forces through the foot into the ground, other than a small amount very briefly as we pivot into chamber at the start of the kick. Most of the force comes from the momentum generated on the initial turn, and then the weight of the leg as it kicks. Roundhouse is relatively easy to catch. Possibly a bit easier than front snap kick. That's always a risk with kicks which are generally slower than hand techniques. And that's possibly the reason why Funakoshi wrote that kicks are a last resort (in the very same book where he gives awesome applications for them). But front snap kick, while very fast and stable, is probably the kick that's responsible for the majority of black and blue toes in our club. Not just mine. People with fully functional feet also seem to suffer a lot with it. And not just my current club. This has been the case in every club I've been to that has a version of the front snap kick. Interestingly perhaps, I trained for a while in a style of kung fu. I'd previously trained wado. One of the first things they tried to train out of me at kung fu was the front snap kick. They had front kicks but you'd strike with the heal in a thrusting action. When I couldn't let go of my wado style, they arranged a sparring match between me and a student with equivalent years experience but in kung fu. The rules were freestyle but light contact. That's probably the first time I learned the futility of the front snap kick. My kung fu comrade simply swept it down, badly spraining my toes in the process.

JR 137, that's cool, but what you describe doesn't sound like the vanilla front snap kick. It sounds more like a forward thrusting one which is also present in Korean styles as well as karate and probably others. There is a version we call a push kick. I think that has great value. As you describe it engages the hips a lot, and thrusts forwards in a sort of stomping action rather than upwards in a sort of whipping action. I can fault this version. It's awesome. But what I was really wondering about was the basic snap kick, which is quite feeble compared to other strikes, bring the knee up, then sort of flick the lower leg up from the raised knee.

In what circumstances would you use a front snap kick? It's fast. It's direct. It's simple. But it's also not that powerful (I know there are powerful front kicks, but I'm talking about the rapid ball of foot snap kick) And it's quite high risk. The number of times I've sprained my toes from this kick being blocked, or even snagging on my opponents suit. Watching the MBA guys on TV and YouTube, they seem to rarely use it. I get that a lucky shot to the gonads or a high shot to under the chin or nose would potentially end a fight, but equally a bad shot is at best useless and at worst will break your toes and/or leave you vulnerable to a sweep. So with the broad spectrum of more powerful, high return low risk techniques in our arsenal, why would we use the front snap kick?

Here's a thought. What if you market it as a performing arts / fitness class? Every new martial arts club or style tries to sell themselves as the most credible modern day combat or self defence system. But why? There are plenty of folks that would like to do something, but don't want to start running, are a bit frightened of the idea of combat sports or martial arts, and generally can't find something they enjoy. I think this is why martial arts are leaking into regular fitness gyms, often thai boxing to music for example. I'm not suggesting that your karate is just a dance system. Of course not. But I think if you're reaching out to wannabe martial artists, you'll struggle because they'll want traceable traditional martial arts. If you reach out to wannabe cage fighters, you have no chance against the BJJ and MMA clubs. But if you reach out to those that want to have some fun, make some friends, and learn something that might one day prove useful, then I think there's a big market.

Some of the more 'specialised' (for want of a better word) strikes require years of conditioning and a mind that doesn't care about pain. Can you repeatedly hit things full force with finger tips? Does it matter if your fingers are all crooked and gnarly and riddled with arthritis? These strikes can still work with modern western fingers, but then you have to be very selective and very accurate. But also a little bit insane. Do you really want to stick your finger tips so violently into someone's solar plexus that you disrupt their heart and possibly kill them? Some might answer yes, if my life depends on it, but if you're life depends on it, would you really be so calm and methodical to pull it off without panicking? None of this is meant to discredit the style. It's just things to think about.

It's a bit worse than that in my case unfortunately, as if worn cartilage is not bad enough. I had an accident and few years ago. Unfortunately the x ray technician failed to spot the damage. The conclusion in a very busy A and E department was that nothing was broken, just badly bruised, and a few weeks of rest to light activity would fix it. It was about 2 years later when the problems persisted that an MRI and further xray analysis revealed that in fact the two joint surfaces had actually caved in. Fragments of broken bone from the smashed joint surfaces had moved and reset in the wrong position. If we'd realised this at the time, there's a chance that key hole surgery could have saved the joint. As it's all now well and truly set in the wrong place, it's a case of management until it either fuses or possibly a joint replacement. As grim as all that sounds though, in about 50% of similar cases, joint degradation stops, and it gets no worse for years. Wow! Yup. I'd defiantly move to an art with less trauma on the feet. Does kicking bother your feet, or just being on your feet in general? It varies. Most days, if I behave myself within my ability, then I'm fine on my feet. I'm also fine kicking most days. But I have to be a bit careful with the type of kick. Kicking to strike with the ball of the foot is a bad idea for me. To be honest I think ball of the foot strikes are a bad idea for anybody. It's basically arthritis waiting to happen. But many people get away with it. Not me. I can still do all the kicks in our arsenal, but I have to be very selective and when and how to use each. I'd never present a front kick as anything more than a distraction for example, because if I deliver it with power, it's going to potentially leaving me limping for a couple of weeks. The bizarre bouncing footwork characteristics of the likes of taekwondo and some styles of karate is out of the question for me. I can do the kangaroo bounce, but if I were to do it for more than a few bounces I'd be limping for a week. So in short, I can still do everything, but whereas many can do everything without thinking too much about it, I have to constantly think about the price I'll pay in terms of foot pain over the next week or more.

Exactly this. In the worst example I know of personally, a young man that joined us a few years ago when to his first competition after just 4 months of training. He had just been awarded his first coloured belt. At the competition he was completely dominated by a man wearing a white belt. Our student came back genuinely demoralised. He said he could have handled losing. But what upset him was that he'd not been able to do anything. He said he felt like a punch bag. A bit of investigating revealed photographic evidence of skill well beyond white belt level, so the guy was confronted by his instructor. At this point the guy admitted he'd done karate for 10 years, had a black belt in judo, and had entered competitions in kick boxing.

It's really not as bad as it sounds, most of the time. I can still do everything I could before, and more. Problems arise if I accidentally kick at at bad angle, that would be OK for most people but not me because my toes don't work right. I don't necessarily want to quit kicking entirely. I enjoy it. But I do want to move more emphasis to hands.

It's a bit worse than that in my case unfortunately, as if worn cartilage is not bad enough. I had an accident and few years ago. Unfortunately the x ray technician failed to spot the damage. The conclusion in a very busy A and E department was that nothing was broken, just badly bruised, and a few weeks of rest to light activity would fix it. It was about 2 years later when the problems persisted that an MRI and further xray analysis revealed that in fact the two joint surfaces had actually caved in. Fragments of broken bone from the smashed joint surfaces had moved and reset in the wrong position. If we'd realised this at the time, there's a chance that key hole surgery could have saved the joint. As it's all now well and truly set in the wrong place, it's a case of management until it either fuses or possibly a joint replacement. As grim as all that sounds though, in about 50% of similar cases, joint degradation stops, and it gets no worse for years.

I think when I started this thread is was perhaps not feeling as positive as I usually do. Although I must face up to the fact that I will never ever the best kicker because of my defective feet. I can still be good. And if my physical limitations highlight anything, it is just the need to ensure my hand techniques are as good as they can be. That might mean cross training elsewhere where there is more focus on hands. I love the suggestions so far. All good. As far as I can tell, there is no wing chun anywhere near me unfortunately. There's a boxing club and a judo club though. Both worth thinking about. But there is also a club not too far away that is a hybrid of kali, escrima and wado with a focus on hand techniques. I don't know if I'd want to commit long term to something like that but I would like to go and have a chat with them, to explore the possibility of training with them for a short while.

I think as martial artists, most of us accumulate a gradually growing list of quick fix remedies and basic first aid gear. My such kit contains : Ibuprofen gel (topical anti inflammatory) Tiger balm red - for minor bruising Deep freeze spray - aerosol analgesic An assortment of compression bandages Surgical tape Not all of this goes into my kit bag. The club has a more comprehensive first aid kit. My stuff is mostly for self treatment at home. I'm thinking of changing some bits. What do folks here consider staples in their basic medical kit? I'm especially interested in what folks do for substantial bruising and sprains. That's one area where I'm still looking for better treatment ideas.

I believe this is a good strategy for the right individual. When I was a young teenager at wado, I was so skinny and lightweight, super fit, but I had no bodyweight to throw around and being weightless, I was easy to knock down, throw or sweep. So I'd make my opponent burn themselves out effectively chasing me, while I jump in a pick a couple of pot shots here and there before bouncing back out. Faster forward 30 years, now I'm heavy, and not as fast or fit. If I were to try the jump in, strike, jump out approach now, my opponents wouldn't get a chance to learn anything from me. They'd just have wait stay safe for 30 seconds or so then stand there looking sheepish in a half baked fighting stance while I'm gassing out unable to continue. So a different strategy is called for. Keep the pressure on. Choose every energy expenditure wisely. Waste nothing. Don't give them a chance to compose themselves. I think from a self defence perspective this works best for all parties. After all, in genuine hostilities the thugs don't want you to compose yourself. They want to keep the pressure on. So by keeping the pressure on in training and forcing your opponent to think under pressure is helping them. This works both ways I think.

But I'll ask anyway. If due to arthritis in the feet, you were to look to migrate away from a style that is kick oriented to a style that makes much greater use of hand techniques, what kind of things would we be looking at? Just exploring options at the moment.

Genghis Khan. OK he was a little bit mean. But he was a tactical/strategic genius. I should probably add, I have no desire to capture a sizeable chunk of the world. But in terms of overcoming challenges by refusing to limit his thinking to that of everyone else, I think there's something to take from that.

Which is fine in my book. We have people who've trained elsewhere. Some seriously, some just looking around to broaden their skills. All cool. That's great in my book. Fine when being honest about it. I'm in the same situation myself. The difference is, kind if saying 'oh I'm only whatever grade in this and this is all I know, honest', and 'I'm only whatever grade in this, but I've got some experience from elsewhere in other styles'.

Every dojo/dojang/gym has got one. Or at least will have or have had at some point. I'm talking about frauds. People who deliberately pretend they are something they are not, in order to put others at a disadvantage and massage their own ego. Ours is a guy who is fairly low rank, rarely turns up to class, yet suddenly appears whenever a competition is coming up. Then in sparring, he will do exceptionally well. Yet those (few in our class) that have seen other styles recognise heavy influences from other styles, and he'll bend the rules and intentionally hurt people. All while playing the innocent nice guy. Don't get me wrong. I have absolutely no issue with people training elsewhere. In fact I think it's a good thing. I myself have changed main style a few times, and cross trained more. But the difference is, all my peers know this, because I'm honest with them. On the other hand, someone turns up every now and then just to practice for some forthcoming glory in a competition he shouldn't be in, I just think that's low. It's like a black belt putting on a white belt and entering beginners level sparring, just so people can be amazed at the white belt with epic skills. But how do you deal with such people? To make matters worse, our instructors, who are blinkered by only ever having trained one style, and being generally nice people that see the best in everyone, seem to be oblivious to this.

I know this is an over simplistic analysis, but it's true. And I always tell it to less experienced folks that retreat backwards as soon as their opponents gets the upper hand. Your opponent can move forward faster than you can move backwards. Therefore, while sometimes it's good to take one step back, sometimes (I personally believe there's rarely a reason to go backwards), it is never good to take multiple steps backward. By that I mean, I'd rather step back to allow a powerful kick burn out before it hits me, with a view to getting straight back in before my opponent has chance to do something else. But if they've caught me flustered and are seizing the opportunity with a rapid volley, I'm not retreating backwards because if I do that, it's very difficult to take back control. Sometimes that's the ideal time to tighten up your guard and storm in forward.

Very good points. But consider this. Names are changed to protect the innocent lol. Cuthbert trains 3 times per week in class. His focus is on the outwardly extravagant jumping/flying/spinning kicks. Outside of class he watches YouTube videos of the 'teachers yourself the jumping spinning flying double 720 backflip kick in 5 minutes flat type. Yet his arms fly open every time he kicks, and his grasp of the more subtle aspects is non existent. Tarquin trains 2 per week, and is not great and the jumping spinning kicks. Nor does he particularly want to be, having quickly learned that he has too much body weight to focus on such high energy demanding techniques that are high risk anyway. Tarquin has figured that the basic principles and basic techniques themselves form an awesome set of skills. Tarquin can easily dominate Cuthbert in sparring because while Cuthbert is flying around, Tarquin has got the footwork and judgement to enable him to get in the best position. Tarquin prefers the simple kicks and strikes and joint manipulations and throws that he knows he can make work. Outside of class, Tarquin practices balance and strength and performs forms slowly, looking at the subtleties of each move or posture change, or quickly, to see how the more explosive shift of weight feels in terms of balance and momentum. Cuthbert is physically more fit and agile. Tarquin is more focused and grounded. So who is going to be the best martial artist in the future? Cuthbert or Tarquin?

I was thinking about my training years ago compared to now. Taking just kung fu as an example, there was only one class per week. It was only a 90 minute class, and a good chunk of that was meditation. Yet good progress was made. Why/how? Well, we'd do some basics, but we'd be scrutinised the whole time. Then most of the class would be dedicated to a single technique. Over and over and over. Usually partnered. One attacks, one defends. Over and over and over until we're told to swap sides. We'd leave with bruises all up our arms from repeatedly blocking / being blocked. It meant that as a young adolescent, I was able to effectively apply a technique and escape when physically attacked by a grown man, and it meant I can still remember most of what I learned now, more than 30 years later. Contrast that to now. I spend close to 8 hours per week in class. But in that time we cover a very broad syllabus. And we fight thin air a lot more than each other. It's still good, but it means progress on any one technique is slower.

I've tried sparring with tight fists. I find I don't move as well. I certainly can't block as fast and I can't flow so well. That said, that could be simply because self perpetuating thing, in that I practice open hand more because I move better that way, and I move better that way because I practice more that way. I can see pros and cons to both. Closed fists are stronger and less prone to injury of course. But open hand, even if it's not actually faster and more fluid in general, does give the advantage of being ready to turn a block into a grab, in theory, although in our sparring rules we're not allowed to grab in free sparring. We're trained to spar with our hands closed, as loose hands = jammed fingers. At least, this is what happens at lower belts. Largely the same with us. Lower belts do very few techniques with open hands. Later open handed is encouraged. I generally prefer open hand.

I have a friend who insists that you have to attend more classes to be a better martial artist. He's right of course. In a way. But I don't believe it's quite as black and white as that. I believe it's not about the number of classes, it's about the quality of those classes, your attitude towards training, and how much you practice and what kind of practice you do outside of class. Thoughts please?