Aikidoka

How do you draw a line and say 'You may begin being spiritual ... now!' ? Spirituality is a totally subjective thing, different to each individual and in many cases incomunicable. Anything can be taken as spiritual because spirituallity cannot be confined and is immeasurable.

TKD_McGee .. you definitely don't have to be Buddhist to study Aikido. Perhaps you should try looking for different clubs or organisations because the majority do not force religion onto their exponents. I believe that martial arts, like yoga or chi kung or meditation can be used to further spiritual ends as well as used to fight. I think it is unlikely that just training in martial arts will result in spiritual experiences but perhaps it can. It is a very Western thing to separate mind, body and spirit and to think they are independant. In Eastern cultures they are one whole and so training the body is used as part of spiritual training. Organised marital arts may or may not have begun in Greece, but methods of armed or unarmed self defense and physical discipline are found in almost every primative culture. The roots of martial arts preceed recorded history, so who can trace them?

Most of what I know about kung fu is to do with the Shaolin familiy of styles. I have heard that Wudan is supposedly more internal than Shaolin, but I have also seen this dismissed by Shaolin masters as ignorance of the depth of Shaolin. Shaolin claims to encompass all the internal aspects of Wudan (chi kung, meditation, visualisation) and more besdies (one finger Zen, tiger claw). Could someone please enlighten me as to the main differences of the two temples, and whether anyone practises Wudan arts.

fraid not dreamer.

I have no wish or need to porvoke you, but it seemed that your signature was either an attempt to provoke others, a cry for validation or a pointless exercise. Perhaps I am wrong, either way ... peace.

Interesting signature AnonymousOne. You are however, insecure enough to need vindication for your decision not to use a signature, because you felt it important to tell everyone why you didn't have one. Philosophy and mindset are vital on the battlefield, as an acceptance of death and an objective and ruthless outlook are vital for self preservation in war. Zen is what made the samurai such exceptional fighters, discipline and conditioning is what keeps modern day soldiers alive. I must presume as well, that you are ignorant of the Buddhist sohei, or warrior-monks of fuedal Japan, and the soldier monks of the Shaolin temple. Warrior and monk are not mutually exclusive. I do not have the arrogance to claim to be either one, for I have never been in battle nor am I ordained into any religion. _________________ Sitting silently Doing nothing Spring comes And the grass grows by itself [ This Message was edited by: Aikidoka on 2002-01-29 11:55 ]

Sticking hands or chi sao is a close range kung fu method demonstrated in Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Praying Mantis and others. Essentially it involves keeping contact with the arms and/or legs of your opponent as they attack and using this contact to sense how to overcome them. Chi sao can be practised in set forms or freestyle, using one, two, three or all of your limbs. A simple example of a set exercise would be for the opponent to attack with a straight left punch, which you then parry with pak sao (slaping hand) and then hook onto his arm with fok sao. As your opponent retracts his punch you follow his momentum and move in to strike with the reverse of the fok sau. In free chi sau you frequently use pushing or pulling attacks to uproot and overbalance your opponent. If the opponent is about to push you over you can sense this through your arms, and can use your arms to parry the attack and pull him past your, overextending him. Chi sau is basically a sensitivity exercise that allows you to know your opponents move before he makes it.

Two common but not always accurate divisions applied to kung fu are southern styles vs. northern styles and internal styles vs. external. Southern styles involve deep stances, strong hand work and low, fast kicks. Northern styles are typified by powerful high/flying kicks. External systems use muscular force to generate power and have hard karate-like blocks, whereas internal systems use the mysterious 'chi' energy, relaxation and timing to create striking power and use softer parries. The Shaolin temple is famous for its various styles of animal inspired Kung Fu and the amazing abilities of its soldier-monks, and has much to do with the history and philosphy of Kung Fu. http://www.shaolin.com has good info on the Shaolin styles. Some of the more famous styles are Wing Chun, one of the most popular systems, Praying Mantis, Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, Chin-na (grappling techniques) and T'ai Chi Ch'uan. The distinctions often become blurred, so the best tactic is to do a lot of research and have a look at your local schools. _________________ Sitting silently Doing nothing Spring comes And the grass grows by itself [ This Message was edited by: Aikidoka on 2002-01-18 11:04 ]

Ninjustsu is viscious. They love clawing the eyes and throat or thrusting into pressure points. They practise with iron claws or shuriken or chain-and-sickle. Your not going to practise throwing blinding powder into peoples eyes in the ring are you?

What's to fear? The unknown? If so, I wouldn't open my eyes in the morning for fear of what I might see. Oblivion? If I simply disappear then I won't know anything about it. I don't pretend to know anything of death except that it is inevitable. It will be interesting to see what comes next (if anything).

by Eric Sotnak <sotnak@bigfoot.com> "The concept of ki is one of the most difficult associated with the philosophy and practice of aikido. Since the word "aikido" means something like "the way of harmony with ki," it is hardly surprising that many aikidoka are interested in understanding just what ki is supposed to be. Etymologically, the word "ki" derives from the Chinese "chi." In Chinese philosophy, chi was a concept invoked to differentiate living from non-living things. But as Chinese philosophy developed, the concept of chi took on a wider range of meanings and interpretations. On some views, chi was held to be the most basic explanatory material principle - the metaphysical "stuff" out of which all things were made. The differences between things depended not on some things having chi and others not, but rather on a principle (li, Japanese = ri) which determined how the chi was organized and functioned (the view here bears some similarity to the ancient Greek matter-form metaphysic). Modern aikidoka are less concerned with the historiography of the concept of ki than with the question of whether or not the term "ki" denotes anything real, and, if so, just what it does denote. There have been some attempts to demonstrate the objective existence of ki as a kind of "energy" or "stuff" that flows within the body (especially along certain channels, called "meridians"). So far, however, there are no reputable studies which conclusively demonstrate the existence of ki. Traditional Chinese medicine appeals to ki/chi as a theoretical entity, and some therapies based on this framework have been shown to produce more positive benefit than placebo, but it is entirely possible that the success of such therapies is better explained in ways other than supposing the truth of ki/chi theory. Many people claim that certain forms of exercise or concentration enable them to feel ki flowing through their bodies. Since such reports are subjective, they cannot constitute objective evidence for ki as a "stuff." Nor do anecdotal accounts of therapeutic effects of various ki practices constitute evidence for the objective existence of ki - anecdotal evidence does not have the same evidential status as evidence resulting from reputable double-blind experiments involving strict controls. Again, it may be that ki does exist as an objective phenomenon, but reliable evidence to support such a view is so far lacking. There are a number of aikidoka who claim to be able to demonstrate the (objective) existence of ki by performing various sorts of feats. One such feat, which is very popular, is the so-called "unbendable arm." In this exercise, one person, A, extends her arm, while another person, B, tries to bend the arm. First, A makes a fist and tightens the muscles in her arm. B is usually able to bend the arm. Next, A relaxes her arm (but leaves it extended) and "extends ki" (since "extending ki" is not something most newcomers to aikido know precisely how to do, is often simply advised to think of her arm as a fire-hose gushing water, or some such similar metaphor). This time, B finds it (far) more difficult to bend the arm. The conclusion is supposed to be that it is the force/activity of ki that accounts for the difference. However, there are alternative explanations expressible within the vocabulary or scope of physics (or, perhaps, psychology) that are fully capable of accounting for the phenomenon here (subtle changes in body positioning, for example). In addition, the fact that it is difficult to filter out the biases and expectations of the participants in such demonstrations makes it all the more questionable whether they provide reliable evidence for the objective existence of ki. Not all aikidoka believe that ki is a kind of "stuff" or "energy." For some aikidoka, ki is an expedient concept - a blanket-concept which covers intentions, momentum, will, and attention. If one eschews the view that ki is a stuff that can literally be extended, to extend ki is to adopt a physically and psychologically positive bearing. This maximizes the efficiency and adaptability of one's movement, resulting in stronger technique and a feeling of affirmation both of oneself and one's partner. Irrespective of whether one chooses to take a realist or an anti-realist stance with respect to the objective existence of ki, there can be little doubt that there is more to aikido than the mere physical manipulation of another person's body. Aikido requires a sensitivity to such diverse variables as timing, momentum, balance, the speed and power of an attack, and especially to the psychological state of one's partner (or of an attacker). In addition, to the extent that aikido is not a system for gaining physical control over others, but rather a vehicle for self-improvement (or even enlightenment (see satori)), there can be little doubt that cultivation of a positive physical and psychological bearing is an important part of aikido. Again, one may or may not wish to describe the cultivation of this positive bearing in terms of ki."

by Eric Sotnak <sotnak@bigfoot.com> from http://www.aikiweb.com "Many practitioners of aikido (from beginners to advanced students) have concerns about the practical self-defense value of aikido as a martial art. The attacks as practiced in the dojo are frequently unrealistic and may delivered without much speed or power. The concerns here are legitimate, but may, perhaps, be redressed. In the first place, it is important to realize that aikido techniques are usually practiced against stylized and idealized attacks. This makes it easier for students to learn the general patterns of aikido movement. As students become more advanced, the speed and power of attacks should be increased, and students should learn to adapt the basic strategies of aikido movement to a broader variety of attacks. Many aikido techniques cannot be performed effectively without the concomitant application of atemi (a strike delivered to the attacker for the purpose of facilitating the subsequent application of the technique). For safety's sake, atemi is often omitted during practice. It is important, however, to study atemi carefully and perhaps to devote some time to practicing application of atemi so that one will be able to apply it effectively when necessary. Aikido is sometimes held up for comparison to other martial arts, and aikido students are frequently curious about how well a person trained in aikido would stand up against someone of comparable size and strength who has trained in another martial art such as karate, judo, ju jutsu, or boxing. It is natural to hope that the martial art one has chosen to train in has effective combat applications. However, it is also important to realize that the founder of aikido deliberately chose to develop his martial art into something other than the most deadly fighting art on the planet, and it may very well be true that other martial arts are more combat effective than aikido. This is not to say that aikido techniques cannot be combat effective - there are numerous practitioners of aikido who have applied aikido techniques successfully to defend themselves in a variety of life-threatening situations. No martial art can guarantee victory in every possible circumstance. All martial arts, including aikido, consist in sets of strategies for managing conflict. The best anyone can hope for from their martial arts training is that the odds of managing the conflict successfully are improved. There are many different types of conflict, and many different parameters that may define a conflict. Some martial arts may be better suited to some types of conflict than others. Aikido may be ill-suited to conflicts involving deliberate provocation of an adversary to fight. While there are some who view this as a shortcoming or a liability, there are others who see this as demonstrating the foolhardiness of provoking fights. Since conflicts are not restricted to situations that result in physical combat, it may be that a martial art which encodes strategies for managing other types of conflict will serve its practitioners better in their daily lives than a more combat-oriented art. Many teachers of aikido treat it as just such a martial art. One is more commonly confronted with conflicts involving coworkers, significant others, or family members than with assailants bent on all-out physical violence. Also, even where physical violence is a genuine danger, many people seek strategies for dealing with such situations which do not require doing injury. For example, someone working with mentally disturbed individuals may find it less than ideal to respond to aggression by knocking the individual to the ground and pummeling him or her into submission. Many people find that aikido is an effective martial art for dealing with situations similar to this. In the final analysis, each person must decide individually whether or not aikido is suited to his or her needs, interests, and goals." [ This Message was edited by: Aikidoka on 2002-01-11 11:39 ]

That statement reflects the principles of Chi Sao that Lee learnt from his Wing Chun Kung Fu training. In that exercise you maintain contact with your opponent and follow their movements or try to uproot them with a correct application of timing and energy. If you stop and think what to do next, you've already lost.

But if they join the martial arts for "stupid reasons" and then reap many benifits, is that not a positive thing? The more people who's lives are improved by martial arts, the better.

In enclosed spaces, the grappler normally has the advantage. A well rounded martial artist may be able to win by combination of grappling and striking, as demonstrated by the Gracie family. UFC champions have been beaten in tournaments in open spaces by stand-up martial artists, because their stand-up fighting was insufficient.

In Japanese budo, the black belt only signifies that the practitioner has learnt the basics, and may now begin truly learning the art.

Release the desire for the pain to stop. You only suffer because you cannot separate the objective pain from the subjective desire for it to end.

"Although the questions about his nationality remain, it should be remembered that Lewis was born and lived in London until the age of 12. On moving to Canada, Lewis initially took up boxing to combat the taunting he received because of his thick London accent." http://www.news.bbc.co.uk

I heard somewhere that you shouldn't meditate before going to sleep, but I can't remember why.

No.

Yes tai chi is short for t'ai chi ch'uan. Many 'new age' practitioners have tried to ignore the combative roots of the style. It could be called kung fu because this is just a generic term meaning 'hard work'. T'ai chi ch'uan has similar roots to kung fu but was not influenced (as far as I know) by Boddhidharma, the monk who brought Shaolin to China. Tai chi has Taoist roots and kung fu has Buddhist.

Kicker; sounds like you have a teacher who doesn't know their stuff if they can't teach you anything new or show you how to improve. Prodigy Child; what will you do if you find out in twenty years that you're an average fighter and never make it to the top? Ambition is one thing, but don't delude yourself. Do you seriously believe that you are 1 in 6 billion? That you will be able to beat anyone on earth?

I think you're a bit obsessed with Bruce, mastertae you mention him in every post Remember, he was a good martial artist, not a god.

That's very distorted logic and mathematics. Being a foot closer would not mean he would punch twice as fast, you're just guessing.

Fair enough - but why don't you just copy and paste from another argument?