Rich

Also for some people it just isnt possible, I believe, due to the hip joints. Even with people whose hip joints do open well enough the butt can push out a bit at the back but they can get themselves more upright. Not being someone who worries too much about deep stances as they aren't relevant to my training I'd suggest checking some good books on biomechanics. Just remember too that we are all built slightly differently so don't be too hard on yourself and don't get into any situation where you may hurt yourself because someone pushes you- in the old days that used to happen a lot with stretching and other bits. Regards Rich

fireka- each to his own as they say. As this is a different thread I'm not going to repeat anything on the dangers of confusing sport with self-preservation but please look into it yourself- I've given plenty of pointers- I just don't want to see a young person, or anyone, get hurt because of not having the right teachings. Nuff said. Apart from that- great. I'd take you up on the issue that someone who weight trains (free weights and body weight) and runs wouldnt outperform a kata performer- these things help you to have the fitness to perform any Karate better. Andrew- you are describing things not found in most modern 'traditional' schools so its a bit different to what I was asking. Rolling around and doing allsorts is definitely much more fun- I was aiming the comment mainly at the kick and punch brigade. Same with your final comment on MMA. In terms of fitness- grappling is a great workout, high reps of techniques is a great workout of sorts. In terms of fighting you may need endurance developed through grappling but in overall fitness terms the running etc. plus weights and bodyweight exercises will take you to a much higher level if done properly- look at some of the superhuman guys we get in special forces particularly our SAS- aerobic exercises and carrying weights in various ways make them that fit, which IMO is probably the foundation for their abilities- everything else gets laid on top. Glad you are having fun and for you it gives you what you want anyway. Regards Rich

Interesting Sai. Thank you for your contribution. Regards Rich

Hey Big Guy Look at some of the Chinese masters- some are big guys too. There are those that think a larger size/ pear shape is best. Now I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with all this- I think your health is the most important and you need to do what you think best in that regard but its encouraging to know your size doesn't prevent you from being a good MA. Take care and just start like the others have said. Rich

OK I know a lot of you are sport oriented. I'd like to hear some considered views on why you do Karate if its not for self-preservation. IMO Karate as fitness falls down badly. Major components of fitness include strength, endurance and aerobic capacity. Strength is best trained with weights and bodyweight calisthenics- these are used in dojos but are not specifically what Karate is about. Endurance- yes repeated techniques help but there are better and more complete ways. Aerobics- again because a lot of training isn't aerobic training the old favs of running, cycling etc. are still the best. Fun. OK can't argue with this as its an individual thing but I'd like to know why train in mainly a punch and kick style when you could have some grappling/ wrestling/ night training/ sensitivity training fun in a more rounded style than most modern dojos provide? Sport. I'd go for rugby any day personally. No contact sparring is quite boring to watch and pretty pointless to do from my perspective. Kata competitions without the rationale of realism can be quite pretty to watch but sport? No. For me that leaves self-preservation and the zen-like striving for perfection in the moment. Within that I have a lot of fun! So guys tell me whats in it for you with some detail please. Regards Rich

Neil Don't know him personally but he seems quite a guy. Your sig- jutsu not do. Certainly the best place to start but I bet you develop 'do' from this if realistic training is your goal. You become a much surer person, for the most part, and can then afford to be a gentleman more often. However, without jutsu people don't always find do. This is just a quick reply but remember that bujutsu and budo are processes in reality. Rich

Hi warmaster It worried me when I compared the 1992 and 2002 US military CQB manuals. The former used a lot of taijutsu derived techniques and as you said the latter is heavily influenced by BJJ/NHB. It seems that fashion is alive and well in the army too! Glad there are some soldiers though who have their best weapon working - ie your brain. The best CQB is like any other military manouver- take them by surprise, hit first, hit hard and don't stop until the threat is over. After that there are decent approaches as a back up plan. Rich

Mandy- I wrote you a very complimentary post. Andrew- I wrote a very long reply to your points. The post was lost when I tried to submit it , as my connection had closed. I will reply to this but not for a while as I have been typing for the past hour. Regards Rich

LOL! No you have never been in a real fight have you! These targets are quite hard to hit without the right training particularly when you add the bit that you forgot ie Mr Thug is intent on ripping your head off and p***ing down your throat. Your level of fear and how that effects everything you do plus his level of aggression bearing down on you is going to mess up most of your cherished beliefs in a rather bloody way I'm afraid. Anyway black belts are much over-rated- I never wear mine now. They have lost much of their meaning even in the sense of accomplishing something, as in many places its too easy to get belts and a lot of schools are money making enterprises first and decent schools second. Mandy- nice to see someone who actually, at whatever level, can understand that kata and self-preservation are closely tied. You may enjoy researching bunkai- apart from anything else it makes a session far more interesting. Regards Rich

Sorry mate- the things Ive mentioned make it so completely different I'm afraid. Yes I am claiming that a Martial Art is different from a sporting art- some people like to say Martial Art and Martial Sport to differentiate but I don't see why we should keep the word martial in something that frankly isnt martial. I don't know how else to explain the difference but if you start to study bunkai you'll soon see some of the 'secrets' to Karate- and then you'll start to get a glimpse of how there is another art 'hiding' where you have been 'sporting'. Its in your hands to find out whats there. I'm not going to continue with this thread now, purely and simply because there isnt a lot more to say at present. And talk is cheap, training will help these factors to become clearer anyway. I'm sure there are issues that will come up in other threads tho'. So...train hard and have fun. Best wishes to all. Rich

No neither am I- there is no Karate without a Karateka, and they are all different. If you read stuff I write you will know that there is nothing that will always work, and no-one who will always win- hence the stress on avoidance and psychology- and living a peaceful life. However, that wasn't the point was it? The point was about being able to differentiate between reality and training or sport- that still holds and is worth thinking about far more than trying to take my posts out of context- it will do more good. Anyway take care. rich

Withers- grappling is part of your Karate 'roots'. However, when you say you wouldnt want to go to ground I agree, grappling standing up is the best alternative.

Okay Andrew Range- most street attacks will start off close in or by surprise NHB- ref starts and competitors approach each other Environment- concrete underneath in street lots of times- changes dynamics completely- rewatch NHB and pretend mat is concrete and quite a few things don't work now, not without injury or worse. - accomplices of attacker (cant afford to get into a one on one for too long -zanshin) - obstacles and/or weather- slippery street, glass, people in way etc. etc. - weapons - ma-ai (can't explain this in short paragraph-sorry It is very different tho between two in most of the fight) - lack of rules- groin/ eyes/ ears/ throat- nuff said - emotional content- dont underestimate this- your life could be forfeit in street- changes dynamics majorly - And so the list goes on.... "Traditional karate does contain all of those things, but that doesn't mean its training methods are effective at making them functional. " Couldn't agree more- the original Karate (pre 'traditional') was born out of the need for fighting for one's life and this predecessor did have it all. However, there are modern training methods that can complement and enhance older forms definitely. I am a firm believer in aliveness training (and am not anti NHB actually ) Sarcasm eh Andrew...? fireka- yeh there is a lot of emphasis on blocking which actually doesnt work very well. If you are interested have a look at the kata bunkai to see that what is usually translated as a block can be a disengagement from a grab, a strangle, a strike etc. Its fascinating and will take your art up a level. Regards Rich

I guess it did, fireka, but you didn't interupt- it would be helpful if you stayed relevant and on topic though. Cheers. Rich

tjs- NHB provide a lot of skills without doubt-and some of these skills are needed in live encounters- these skills were developed in the ancient arts too because of this. If you can't see that the ma-ai, context and variables are so different between the two as to make them distant cousins at best then I just hope you don't find out the hard way. You may need to hold onto your illusions for some reason- I can't fault you for this as most of us do hold onto cherished notions in the face of experience or wisdom- but life has a way of bringing us back to what is real through experience. fireka- your post makes no sense. We are discussing Karate as a MARTIAL art in this thread not as a sport and not as keep fit. Personally I think there are better sports and better ways to keep fit but that is only my opinion and I understand there are many views on this, however, this thread was started in relation to the martial art only, as you can deduce from the title. Sport and keep fit would be appropriate in a new thread. Also I didn't in this thread prove that one style outweighs another- that was precisely what I was attempting to go beyond- it might help to re-read the posts before you reply. omnifinite-LOL Started to think that too. I do think it may have been a useful process for some though- perhaps readers of the post rather than posters? Hope so anyway. There are many that don't realise that originally Karate had grappling and vital point attacks, that kata postures are more than just pretty positions to be disregarded in fighting, that power generation in the original was quite different to what is commonly taught (no reverse punch- even though you will find an opposite hand tsuki to lead leg in zenkutsu dachi- this in itself is worthy of much study), that styles evolve out of the original as it got watered done and then bits rediscovered etc etc. Regards to all Rich

Thank God BKJ- I was close to banging my head against the wall in frustration. TJS- Two points: Firstly in a real fight more often than not it will start with a psychological, verbal exchange-very different set up- and/or it will occur close in from the off- not nice like a ref started match where you approach each other in a posture- you may not even see the attack coming sometimes. Secondly you were given a brain- this 'could' and should be your most powerful weapon. Please use it- I have seen, and felt, the realities of the things I talk about- you are being very naive, along with some other posters when thinking that sports and life are the same. Please start thinking like 'Bushi' and stay safe. (As another example: remember when one chap in the UFC was slammed into the canvas but managed to lock the throwers arm and win? Swap the mat with concrete for a start) I realise this post isn't going to make me popular but if I can help wake up even one (I guess there are a lot of young people here) person to the nasties of real violence then it will have been worth it. Take care all Rich

This post is exactly the wrong one to suggest a sporting contest in. Please, please try to differentiate between sport and MARTIAL arts- it may one day save your life. Rich

Again lack of distinction between street attacks and MMA sparring here plus lack of knowledge that the martial art of karate contains strikes, locks, holds, throws, gouges, grabs etc. etc.- all to weak points. Having said this don't get too cocky cos a shoot is very hard to defend against using the defenses mentioned above!

Be careful submission fighter with the ol' generalisations- all karate styles have reverse punch. Ever heard the old karate saying 'there is no reverse punch in karate'? I think some people are still having trouble with the difference between a sport or self development art and a martial art for self preservation. In the latter all attacks will be at weak points as much as is possible, the action usually occurs close in - no bouncing around and in and out with techniques, there will probably be some, or a lot of, conditioning of the weapons to be used, the encounter will be over in seconds usually, the art will explicitly teach eye, ear, groin etc etc attacks as a major part of the curriculum- and these days a good school will spend a lot of time teaching psychology and avoidance so you never have to be in the nasty situation of having to test these things out. smr- you are right in re-mentioning shuri-te and naha-te-there are different principles involved here. However, I think that rigidly separating them wasnt probably done until later- in some senses, as I said before, each kata is a style in itself- each karateka used their own style reflected in the katas they invented. The difference is the rigidity implied by the modern view of style which I don't think was around back then- hence my comment and kamikai's on their being no styles. So we can continue arguing about modern styles or we can realise they all have a common 'style' within them- the seed of the original forms- and seek to bring that back out, after all that is the only truly effective karate there is. (Any modern practitioner who successfully uses karate in the street will have re-discovered at least a part of the old ways so I'm not suggesting that a 'Shotokan' person, for example, who was trained properly and had the right attributes couldnt defend themselves at least in some scenarios. The great Terry O'Neill is a fine example of a man that can use his karate.) Rich

Hi all smr- yes I know of a few excellent instructors that have spent much time and effort finding the roots of karate. BKJ- it doesnt depend on what the practitioner wants- it depends on how realistic the techniques and training methods are if you are interested in surviving a real attack-some styles are sorely lacking in this. Sepultura- if you are interested in competitions then its fine to make jusgements based on that- if you are interested in the 'down and dirty' side of survival then an art that doesn't include close in work, offbalancing techniques, grabs, ripping etc. etc. is pretty much a waste of time in MOST self defense situations. I think that if you are truly interested in what karate has to offer then you must research kata bunkai and then you will start to go beyond style and thus, in full circle, back to its roots. HTH Rich

Firstly the practitioner is more important than the style as is the training methods and methodology. Within that, however, the original form(s) of karate before these stylistic differences emerged would be the deadliest as this was what was being used in actual combat. Karateka since then have fought, of course, on occasion but mostly these have been sparring matches or they have used other techniques not in their style. A real street encounter requires the original teachings which includes a lot of very close in work with grabbing, twisting, close range strikes etc. The Okinawan styles have moved away from the original as much as Funakoshi's altering of Karate for the Japanese did. Each kata could be considered its own style as they were originally complete systems in themselves. HTH Rich