Beer-monster

I think we're taking about different parts of the kata, having also studied the pinans and well as the heian versions. The conbination I refer to is not repeated on both sides. The one that is repeated is after the morote uke, bring both hands to the side, kick (either mae geri or yoko geri keage depending on style) whilst doing an outward fist attack (either hammer fist, gedan barai, uchi uke, uraken) before doing an elbow smash. This is then repeated on the other side The next sequence appear the same in most styles I've seen when you face north, perform a right knifehand strike whilst covering with the left hand before the forehead and right mae geri before moving into an uraken in kosa dachi. That the part I was refering to in my original post

The interpretation I usually go with is that covering a haymaker from the inside with the left hand you use the shuto against the carotid sinus or weak pint of the jaw. Since this take some accuracy and make not knock the guy out you snap kick them in the groin, which instinctively forces them to bend. Guiding their head down with the circling motion of the left arm you sslip in close with the back leg (thus in cross stance) and slam you elbow into the back of their neck/base of spine ('backfist attack')

Hi all, like many of you have I've been reading Funakoshi's Karate-do Kyohan, and am finding it an interesting read. However one element that seems to stick at me is the bunkai described as the application for various kata movements. Most of them seem to defy reality and do not seem to be methods of practical self defense. For example in reference to the knifehand strike followed by the mae front kick in Heian (pinan) Yondan. The purpose of this technique is to break the elbow of the opponents attacking arm with a kick while holding and drawing the arm in with the hand. Now I'm sure I don't have to explain the reasons why such a technique is implausible to the point of impossible in the hectic battleground of the street/pub/club. So I'm at a loss to explain why a master of Funakoshi's knowledge would publish such methods, was he hiding the true intentions of karate so that no one could learn such dangerous skills from a book, or is it true what I heard about Nakayama, Egami and other shotokan seniors modifying and changing Funakoshi's text? Anyone have any opinion, comments, rebuttals, answers?

Hmm just a thought, but the three gedans might work as a guillotine choke, neck crank type of move (though this is a bit dodgy) In close quarters, dropping your weight use kiba dachi, and using a knife hand to create distance and take a hard grip you use the mikazuki geri to sweep an opponents leg up and away (with a good follow through thus the height). This may or may not (since life is not predictable ) take him down, if not it should have made him stumble enough to slam an elbow into his head. Now since you already have his head, drop the arm straight along one side (gedan barai) and pull his head into the crook formed by the elbow of your supporting arm so his head is in your armpit. Swap the arms to tightnen the guillotine choke, you could put the straight arm over his shoulder for a figure 4 choke. Take hold of his head by the chin with your bent (right) arm and swap again to crank the neck. if this doesn't work, or you want to finish him use yama tsuki to throw him away or take him down (grap one arm high, one low to his groin or thigh lift and twist in a modified body lock take down). Sorry - thats kind of hard to describe in words but I hope you can understand, what do you guys think?

That very true Really that was just a gripe based on my wway of working bunkai, I usually like to have an application that follows the kata movement as close as possible and then move into "henka" by changing the levels, proximity, tool of the move. But thats just me. Back to the yama tsuki, why would you say there are three of them, as thats suggests a stand alone application as well as one that follows from the elbow and leads to the uchi? If that makes any sense. Speaking of the elbow, anyone have anything for the wierd triple supported gedan barai movements in kiba (shiko) dachi?

That is the application we learn too, put in the scrappy, close in environment of a real fight I'm not convinced that it would work (especially considering how difficult it is to use standrad blocks in such times) I'm leaning towards the wrestling body-lock application suggested by TSG, and in the video(thanks Gyte) although that takedown seemed a bit higher than the move is executed in the kata.

hi guys, I'm back with another bunkai question. I was just wondering if anyone had any practical combat applications for the yama tsuki (mountain punch) technique and the low uchi uke that follow in bassai dai (passai) kata. It just seems in my very humble opinion that punching simulataneously with boths fists high and low, is not conducive or particularly applicable in the scrappy, close-in and hectic environment of an actual fight. Nor does the high block low punch bunaki I've heard I've beeing going over it looking for a thrown or some other takedown in the movement but don't seem to be getting anywhere. Any other bunkai for Bassai would be most appreciated as well and I think would make for a useful thread since the majority of us practise this kata in some form or another

"Karate begins with Naihanchi and ends with Naihanchi." Replace the word Naihanchi with Sanchin and you would end with a quote often attributed to Chujun Miyagi (can't be 100% sure on that) Naihanchi/Tekki is the base kata of traditional Shuri-Te/Tomari-Te lineages where Sanchin is the base of Naha-Te lineage karate. both are said to be vital, deadly and contain everything a karateka should know about the art and the combat. Since such emphasis was placed by the old masters on these kata, I thought it might make enlightening conversation (though I have been wrong before ) to open a thread on these kata. What do practitioners of one think of the other? How does the bunaki of Naihanchi/Tekki compare to Sanchin How does the internal aspects developed in the kata compare and influence future karate? What of the different versions such as Higaonna Sanchin and Miyagi sanchin; or Nahanchi and Tekki? Anything anyone else has to say on these kata? Get typing people

That's a new one on me, what's it like? ^_^ I'm always happy to learn about a new style

Sometimes differences can be hard to adapt. Mainly is the tiny details. In my my first style Shokukai we use Shiko dachi alot more, then when I started shotokan it was all kiba dachi. I saw the difference, my brain could adapt to the change, my body was a different matter since it acts on muscle memory. I could tell my toes to point forwards but then sometimes if I was focussing more on the punch, they would slip to a slight angle. Again though, this seemed like a rather small and, except where gradings are concerned, insignificant change. But hey maybe thats just me ^_^

I can grasp the changes quite eaily, anyone who ever tries a different style quickly notcies what is different. Putting aside training methodology which is more to do with the individual that the martial art. One such differenec is in Shokukai we did age uke at a angle where as in Wado and Shotoi we do it parallel. I've heard reasons from both sides to justify there way and I personally don't see age uke as a block anyway, however in the end it just seemed a rather superficial change. In Wado both arms go forwards on a oi tsuki, in shokukai we bring the shoulder round to extend the punch and in Shoto the shoulder is square. Again I've heard explanations to support all sides, but this any many of the other changes all seem skin deep. Most of the changes are small and can be adapted to however, I believe that it is the principles and soul of the art that makes the style not the technique. It is hard to describe but the inate quality which makes karate karate, what it is, the principles behgind the movements and the strategy of the art is the same. A leapord can have different pattern of spots but in the end its the same animal. Its just my opinion but I think too many people get rapped up in this way is the Shotokan way, this the Kyokushinkai way, this is our way do it that way, and don't look deeper to see than in the end there is Karate, just seen with different eyes. Of course saying that doesn't get me any higher up the grade , so I'll just do what they say

Very well said Shorinryu sensei, however I must ask, are the styles of karate really that different? Then again that's what this thread is about, to hear different views. Especially in considering the most common styles out there, many have the same kata and similar movements, what difference does a cat stance rather than a back stance or to have your fist held a bit higher on this movement really make?

That's very true, but all car moves on the same principles and purpose, the differences are mainly superficial details of appearance, design and comfort. After all if you learn to drive in a ford, you can still drive a ferrari (unless one of them was an automatic I guess). I guess it comes down to whether you think that technique matters more than the principle on which it is founded, which often depends on you sensei. Any thoughts

Hi guys. Just wondering what every ones opinion of the different styles is as due to various circumstances and geographical changes I have had to change karate style twice (shokukai to wado to shoto), so I've been thinking of this a lot. So what's your take on the style gap. Do you see Karate as essential the same martial art and that the only differences are superficial or more a matter of how you train rather than what you train. Or do you think of the styles as world apart and completely seperate, such as preying mantis kung fu is from wing chun kung fu. Would you think that someone with a belt in another form of karate would know nothing about you style? If someone with say, a green belt joined you dojo, would he have to start from the beginning again or keep his grade and be given a chance to adjust. Hopefully we can get an active, insightful but respectful thread from this

Hello. I practise Shorinji kan jiu jitsu. However early last year it went through a bit of an identity facelift. It is practised by a group called the Jitsu foundation and is usually now referred to by the simple term " jitsu" or "TJF jiu jitsu" It's quite wide spread through the UK with many clubs at universities. It teaches jiu jitsu with emphasis on defence, with techniques ranging from Judo styles throws to more flowing techniques such as found in aikido. It pressure tests techniques by use of Vs where you are singly attacked by multiple opponents in a near continuous stream. How effective this is for real combat I'm not sure, however it definitely helps you drive through the adrenalin barrier. Its also quite a formal style compared to other dojos I've studied with a strict hierarchy and lots of bowing. I started at university and still find it an enjoyable martial art to study, and the breakfalling is a useful talent to have. My advice try and see. What do you have to lose?

How come no one seems to have said step diagonally forwards. Moving in and punching simultaneously works well because the force of a flailing blow is at the end of his arm, inside has very little power or pressure. It would be like getting hit by a nerf bat. The worst thing is it may take you off balance to keep your weight low and stable. Also just lift an arm to block or ward the blow (you can do this karate style or boxing style - just give them something to hit that is not your face). You need to punch simultaneously as he punches he will be open and you need to smack him before he uses the other arm. In blocking id your not just covering, block into the blow (about midway through the forearm where there is less power) with a cutting motion. Well thats how I do it and it does work

How about 8 baseball bats?

Hi all Does anybody know if there is a term in Japanese (martial arts) that is equivalent to the Chinese term Jing: refering to the expression of chi (ki) as martial power? Thanks to anyone who can help. Oh and feel free to use this thread to post other equivalent chinese to japanese to korean MA terms, it may be of use to others who study and/or research different styles

nose is better. I prefer the jaw, there are several points to hit along the chin and jawline which lend themselves to a good knockout (if you believe in that stuff) and they are close enough to each other that you do not require crackshot accuracy. Hitting the jaw also addles the brain by shaking it in the skull, allowing you more opportunity to follow ups. The nose is good, but I know people who take shots on the nose (broken), their eyes tear up but they keep going. But hey, whatever works best for you mate go for it.^__^

You know this seems a weird argument. I thought it was pretty much well-established that to have any real chance of survival you need to know how to strike AND grapple. The argument that grappling doesn't work against multiple opponents really only applies to ground fighting as I think we can all agree, against mutliple opponents the ground is not where you want to be. However accidents happen and Murphy's law is universal. If you do happen to fall over with the guy (eg trip on a bottle) how are you going to get out from under the fat guy without knowing some groundfighting and having trained in escapes? That said, spend to long tugging at someones jacket and you will get enveloped by his buddies. It is often better juts to punch and keep punching. You can emphasise what best works for you, whether punching or striking, since which is best depnds on you. However you will always need both. Personally my first response is always HIT THEM VERY HARD & VERY FAST IN THE FACE (well jaw to be accurate). Why? Because it works often...is easy...can be trained for greater reliance...is a deterrent...is a natural response. However being only 10.5 stone I can see this not havcing the amazing knock out effect I always want. Therefore I would move into my jiu-jitsu/karate methods to manipulate the opponent into more strikes or submissions. Be that throwing using kosoto gaki (simple, effective need little space) and stamping on the head with a heel kick; using a judo grip and clinch to twist them into a hard knee strike; or just breaking an arm or choking. Either way, both striking and grappling are needed. Thats just the tactic I train for...find your own but use all the tools needed

Hello. I practise Shorinji kan jiu jitsu. However early last year it went through a bit of an identity facelift. It is practised by a group called the Jitsu foundation and is usually now referred to by the simple term " jitsu" or "TJF jiu jitsu" It's quite wide spread through the UK with many clubs at universities. It teaches jiu jitsu with emphasis on defence, with techniques ranging from Judo styles throws to more flowing techniques such as found in aikido. It pressure tests techniques by use of Vs where you are singly attacked by multiple opponents in a near continuous stream. How effective this is for real combat I'm not sure, however it definitely helps you drive through the adrenalin barrier. Its also quite a formal style compared to other dojos I've studied with a strict hierarchy and lots of bowing. I started at university and still find it an enjoyable martial art to study, and the breakfalling is a useful talent to have. My advice try and see. What do you have to lose?

It does exactly what it says on the tin Kiai is written from two characters ki = energy/breath/chi (whatever term you want to use, you know what I'm on about) and ai = harmony, bring together. Where aiki means to harmonise energy, kiai is usually taken to mean bringing together energy. To elabourate; its about focus, bringing together all of your energies, kinetic, mental, interna et,l at one spot or behind one strike. The act of yelling both expresses and amplifies this focus. People do not exert or focus there strength in silence. A woodsman with his axe may well grunt and yell as he swings his axe into the tree. When an olympic hammer thrower releases the hammer, they often roar. Power lifters scream as they try to press that huge weight and raise the bar a few inches harder. The act of making a sound when exerting energy helps one focus there mind and muscles behind the act - even in soft arts people who study internal martial arts often makes a soft, drawn out "haah" as they exhale and try to mould their ki. The type of sound reflects the type of energy and focus of the task, so when punching and releasing a lot of power explosively, what better than a loud, lung boiling, explosive yell? Try it yourself. Throw a few punches silently, perhaps against a bag or pad. Then throw a few more but when you exhale, give a small, sharp shout from your abdomen. Feel it is your fist hits the bag and all your power is behind it. Roar as you throw a flurry of chain punches as if the bag is your worse enemy. I would be surprised if you did not notice an increase in power and focus, it may be small, but you'll notice it and so will whoever you hit. But make sure you do hit them, and good. If you scream your head offas you miss...you may look an idiot. But thats part of the fun

Congratulations guys you've succeeded in confusing me I studied shotokan for a couple of years (got my purple) but then had to change styles due to geography. I studied Wado for a while and now do JKA shotokan. I found and still find it hard to adapt to the different hip motion in shotokan, so I must be doing something different. However I can't recognise this double hip as you guys describe it. No matter which style I used, my hip has always moved anti-clockwise when throwing a right reverse punch (that is my the right point of my pelvis moves forward while the left either stays still or moves back a little). In shokukai I was taught to push with the back leg to start off, let this motion move to my hip so the right side swung forwards , then let the momentum carry through the rotation of my shoulder behind my fist. So that power is brought up from the ground and amplified through the hip and shoulder. I felt I got quite a bit of power from this though my shoulders weren't square, though it took practise to learn how to keep the posture so you don't over extend and lose it. In Shotokan I push from the back leg as before, however the hip seems to shunt forwards and then back in a fast motion, pushing out the punch but then returning square, and the shoulders don't move. So somewhere along the lines I'm either wrong or just very confused. There was no clockwise movement behind the punch until throwing the other hand. It felt more poerful the first way though

Try Hadoken

ur still quite novice, so don't sweat it... a few more months of intense training and kata will be embedded in the depth of your brain. All kata are just movements in the end, so practice makes perfect! BUT make sure you do them right, cus it may be hard to fix them later if you memorize the wrong way. PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT! I myself still forget parts of some kata... even the very first one!! Also i get kata's confused... most embarassing is be doing Bassai dai and finishing it as heian godan... god i felt like such a dork! Just movements?????