Luther unleashed

I like the second video. It's actually pretty cool looking. The breathing like that I used to practice a ton of years ago in ITF but it would be very difficult I'd imagine for me to adapt now. The way I do forms now and have for a long time is with less emphasis on every strike, and staying low or the same height, no bounce up and down. Collapsed looking form though, upon second peak I also see some Naihanchi as well.

DWX I don't personally know of any WTF form that is similar. WTF forms are very different in the sense they are intentionaly modernized and have adapted very small stances. Instead of the traditional front stance you will see more walking stance which is exactly how it sounds. Most Tang Soo Do schools do call is Passai as well. From my understanding it is the Korean translation of Bassai. The difference is in the second part to the name. Shotokan Says "Bassai Dai" and some older korean schools/organizations call it" Bassai Dae". If you, YouTube it with the DAE you will see the consistent relation to Tang Soo Do, but much harder to find then Passai. I never really refer to it as Passai or even Bassai without the DAE because as the 2 of these forms it would not be very specific. The Japanese varient is Bassai Sho, Korean is Bassai Soh. Again notice the small difference in the second part spelling. As I learned it, Bassai Dae is the "greater known" snake form, or "extract from a fortress, greater known version". Bassai Soh is "lesser known" snake form or "extract from a fortress, less known version". I'll post that one next. Let me know if you see any similarity in TKD forms from your perspective, it interests me. Thanks for posting the videos above. The first one I felt had more similarities to pyung ahn oh dan interestingly enough. Cool looking, less foot movement leading to distance traveled the most TSD forms but plenty of foot work.

I would agree with everything you said in this post. I think the thing to remember is that many people are not going to be able to take a movement like that and have self taught to clean and crisp technique but in my open yet and it is absolutely possible if you go about it correctly and critiquing your self

The quality of the techniques would come from detailed books or videos. I could argue there is, at times, more detail in a book or video then from an instructor. Sometimes due to the fact that the instructor isn't good, isn't detail oriented, or simply has a bigger class. I experience this often as I typically do not have a great deal of help but many times I have a larger class. Very hard to treat a large group like a private lesson. This could almost be a separate topic but I think it's fair to throw it in there as to what type of instruction one is getting from an actual instructor and I think it's safe to say it will vary just as the quality of home training will vary.

I thought this was an interesting one. Bassai is well known. The most well known version however is Bassai dai, Much less known is Bassai Dae as I practice it. More common Shotokan version/Bassai dai performed by a guy better then me lol. Notice the rigid movements which are trademark in karate Less common/Me performing Bassai Dae. Notice the more smooth fluid motions seen less in Karate, but more in Kung Fu, also much more emphasis on deep breathing excessive within the form Note: due to my back problems the jump in the middle from a front stance is too painful as slamming my rear foot into the mat is too much, so I have adapted the more common quick step as seen in the first video. It's called adapting to age and injury technique haha. By the way, if anybody has a tae kwon do form closely relates to this that would be awesome because it would help with with the threat is supposed to be for, I am aware that mine had very little to do with taekwondo in particular for this I apologize. I just do not know of one that fits

So I disagree about the ground game. I call my program "Integrated Tang Soo Do". In essence I mean it's a mixed martial arts program with a foundation in Tang Soo Do, but very little ground game. Before the UFC came about calling what a person taught MMA simply meant a mixture of martial arts, which is obviously what it should mean, now I never use the word because I don't want the book cover that comes with it. I know people will assume I weak tiny underwear ad put on gloves lol. No, really though I don't think that teaching a mixture of martial arts and using that word to describe it means you NEED ground game. Is kickboxing and karate not a mixture of martial arts? Also I agree with the general about the kickboxing, that's a bit o an interesting thing. I can say though that there are certain martial arts that seem to always have belt systems No matter where you go like Karate. Others like kickboxing an certain Kung fu styles only have them in certain places even when most don't. Belts are just a way to represent short term growth, I wouldn't think even if he made his own belt system to teach it in a structured way that it's cheesy. I don't know I'm all about checking it out. Some people aren't great at representing themselves on the Internet. If you walked in and the guy was really good, and ran a fun looking and felt eat energy class the things that gave you the red flag might just mean very little to you, or they could make you feel you were right if it's not to your liking haha.

Cool vids guys. MAFreak I'm dying to know what you threw at the end and if you found it haha.

I get what your saying. As you said it just depends on the perspective and what exactly we mean by self taught martial arts. I agree with what you're saying about some of the online programs that are out there, you're getting feedback so it's not completely self-taught. There are many different angles to this whole topic obviously.

I just don't agree. I think a teacher is always necessary to pass down information and knowledge effectively. Not at least in the sense you mean it, as in right there with you. If chuck Norris made videos and sent them to you don't you feel you could learn a great deal from him? Also, as for feedback, it's the easiest way BUT with today's technology of being able to video yourself and compare, it's not the same as it once was. In fact I'm an iPhone user, I do all my videos on iPhone. There's programs (apps) for everything. You can video yourself in slow motion, you can align your video with another, countless ways to correct your "form"! It's easy to say it will be harder, but to me it's absolutely doable and a teacher isn't required. There are students that I teach hundreds of times and to be quite frank about it they still just don't get it. There are students I teach one time and one time only and they get it. The student who my teacher thousand times would probably not be successful learning on their own, for the students that gets it after lesson one would have a much better success rate learning on their own. Again I have personally witnessed many bad teachers and I think it's fair to say there are more that will get you into trouble then will get you where you want to be. Often people think that they want to learn from the guy who is exceptionally fast and has exceptional technique because they somehow think that's going to translate to them. Many of us though that being able to perform technique and being talented is far from the same thing as being able to successfully translate that to your students. I'm going to give a history of Tang Soo Do, because you can google it, but you won't see a history that says simply it's a Korean variant of Shotokan Karate but it is. I watch many videos on the two because I'm Tang Soo Do I have learned plenty of applications to forms, BUT Shotokan has many more, part of that is because they simply focus on deriving more fighting techniques out of the forms, which are where Tang Soo Do forms come from of course. Hung gar King fu is this way, they really focus on what they can derive from forms. I enjoy this very much, and it's one of the greatest areas of interest to me. Videos and books provide me with a great deal of ideas and often specific techniques. I'm not boastful, and consider myself humble and secure as a person. I will say though that I have always had an easy time picking up techniques, as a 16 year mechanic I often joke with my wife calling myself the mechanic in class. I'm not a real flashy kicker, I'm not very strong, but I do have some qualities such as being able to understand leverage, angles, distance, and timing very well this the "mechanic" term. Maybe it's that my mind is geared towards it, maybe there is such a thing as mechanically inclined, I don't know, but I do know I can pick up a technique that I see others struggling with. Maybe a person who can't pick it up easily will have a hell of a time trying to pick it up from a book or video, but somebody who gets it a little easier certainly can pick up techniques from books or videos, I can tell you for a fact that I have done so and been complimented on those techniques in a studio. Training from no experience from the ground up? This may be different then what I'm saying, so I think there are limits to learning this way, especially from scratch.

To an instructor I'm curious what your thoughts are. I grew up with testings being a topical 3 to 4 months apart from each other, and if you were there working hard you could test. There was no specific time on rank required most of the time. I say most of the time as I trained different places, martial arts etc. I tell students there is no time limit and they will move as fast or slow as they show me they are deserving of. In the end I'm sort of not being honest because if there is no time limit then a black belt could be achieved in 6 months to a hard working student. That just couldn't happen, so I suppose when I say it what I mean is I'm not going to make you wait a certain time to test out of each rank BUT I'm not going to skip belts and hold extra testings because you are getting it down either. If a student trains consistently under me, and is getting things with ease on average they should test in about 2 years for black belt. To me black belt is a mastery of the basics and 4 to 5 years is just not necessary for this. It is said Chuck Norris earned his 1st Dan in Tang Soo Do in 1 year. I'm certain it was a very dedicated year. I recently checked in (being nosy) on an old place I used to train at. One of the students who made black belt in april of 2014, is now at 3rd Dan as of July 2016. I am not hating on him, and to each their own, but as I trained along side this gentleman I can say his technique needed more time to blossom. There is a point when you can see that the technique needs more of something and most often more time training that techniqu can make the difference. Some schools are content with you knowing the required techniques, I was told by my instructor "it's not always about how many techniques you know, but how well you know them". This is about quality over quantity plain and simple. My students do many many basic kicks and I sometimes have to wonder just what they think but my goal is to make them real good at a front snap kick and a roundhouse before I care too much about advanced kicking. Do you require a set time in rank? What is the importance of time in rank to you?

I learned it as a hammer fist after breaking from a hold. I think it's obviously going to simply depend on your specific school and instructor. What ones intended application often will effect the angle of the said hammer fist/back fist.

Yes DWX great point, simple and to the point. I still however wonder what screams McDojo to the original poster pdbnb?! I like to hear from people as I do my own website and that type of feedback is important. It looked ok to me. Maybe less traditional style then I prefer personally but still fine.

I make some good points on occasion lol, you however make great points in a much more educated and less erratic manner obviously. Your posts are always well thought out, well put together, and make sense. I appreciate that and apologize that mine can't be what yours are. I completely agree with you that it's mental. I think of it like this, so I hurt my back again, it happens a few times a year from an old mechanic injury. This time it was pretty bad and I had to teach classes hunched over, actually when it first happened in class I had I finish class sitting on my knees. It was embarrassing and I felt it must have looked unprofessional but nobody even seemed to notice lol. Anyways, it's in my left side lower back, so I typically can kick with much better efficiency then my left, in fact for now I won't be kicking with my left at all. This has happened so many times that my left leg is less flexible, less powerful and less fluid and sharp. It's only a disadvantage if I don't realize this. My point is that we need to know our weaknesses. Not only from injury or what not, but all weaknesses. I have a tough road ahead of me to be a great TKD kicker, but I know it so if I go with lower kicks and even many more hand techniques i can't imagine it's a true disadvantage really. I think to know your own limitations and to be realistic is a huge part of being successful in a fight. I'm not proud that I have been on fights. I have said before I used to be a troubled teen and I got my butt kicked in the streets more then many have probably fought. For me I have a pretty good concept of what's going to be accessible to me, and functional. Not everybody will understand these things and that's the hard part. I'll admit I'm short sighted as I can't always relate to certain differences in people's abilities. I'm with you on not being into bare knuckle martial arts lol, in the end you and I would probably do a better job avoiding a fight though, then a younger bare knuckle fighter. In this way we will achieve better "self protection" which is as important as good fighting skills.

Working on some speed drills in class, having some fun with my daughter! This is a fun excessive I suggest every school try, I never see it being performed without a smile, or look of anxiety haha. Speed drill https://youtu.be/7O_AI6abpQM

My opinion is a bit on the far side on this one but to try and spin it a different way... The major difference of opinion I think I feel as that I don't actually buy into a great deal of traditional martial arts in the same way as many others. I happen to believe that there are many reasons a person practices the arts. Reasons like art form, health, staying limber, and so on are plenty usable learning in your own. Also, many seem to believe that something like kickboxing/boxing is easier because it's more simple since it's essentially just striking. Well, many applications I have learned for complicated techniques turn these movements into striking. I have learned others but the ones I "believe in" are typically the ones that are turned into striking applications. A simple direct strike is very often better self defense then complicated wrist locks or arm locks and so on. In this way I don't see karate being different then boxing and so on. Sure there will always be some adrenaline and difference from a fight but in the end NOTHING can prepare you 100% for a fight like a fight. Many many traditional martial artists wouldn't hold their own in a fight on the street, most people should know that. On top of everything traditional martial arts can't make somebody who isn't a fighter, a fighter. It tends to draw people who aren't fighters, they may attain extra tools but it won't make them Liyoto Machida! Karate IS meant to be practiced alone as well as with people. Forms are a great example of its solitary use. If we think of the complex technique in forms we think "no way you can become effective at self defense on your own without a teacher" but if we think of striking being the way to victory, it makes one think it's less of a big deal. The first lesson I learned in 1993 was "in a fight you are extremely likely to only use your most basic and simplist techniques"! To me the absolute best way to teach self defense is sparring, I watch new students get in there often and trip over themselves under pressure, no matter how much I teach them. The more experienced can actually try things out with more ease. Self defense moves are done too slowly with no pressure and have a hard time holding a candle next to a person in sparring hear swing at you lol. In my opinion though striking something can be a great substitute and if you can successfully imagine your hitting a person I don't feel that "you can't learn effective martial arts" on your own. If you can honestly video yourself, and break down everything your doing along side somebody else, I don't think for a second you can't learn on your own. Most certainly all won't be learning to fight anyways. I practice Hung Gar Kung Fu. I don't find a great deal of it useful for fighting, but for strengthening my legs, controlling my breathing, memory (there is an entire story verbally spoken with each form), art and more I practice it. I can't see that being so hard to learn online that one couldn't do it. To be honest I don't have a tremendous amount of faith in a lot of teachers. Many IMHO will steer many students in the wrong direction anyways. They will give them a false sense of being able to handle themselves, they will teach techniques improperly and so on. Is the value of a teacher so high when we think of it like this. I once read that bruce lee use to train with students in football padding and sometimes pieces of mattresses and so on, so that they may go full force and not hold back because he believed you will execute how you practice. In other words you spar tapping people and create a habit of taking it easy, not going full force. When you fight you will be like a fish out of water trying to go full force. I don't know any martial arts studios or teachers that do it like this, so in this theory many will still struggle in a fight to find techniques to successfully defend themselves under pressure. I say, one can successfully train at home if they have the right mind frame, and dedicate themselves to refining technique. I think it comes down to having a good source, just like having a good teacher. Learning from 15 different and random people online will be rough. Learning from a trusted source is easily doable to me! I strongly disagree with anybody that says it isn't worth more then a workout. One of the most important things I have learned in life as well as martial arts is not to let the "many" detour you from your path. Seeking advice is great but Follow "your" path and your heart and I assure you, YOU will find the answers that best suit you.

Some gun/grab self defense. Thanks to my daughter for being the body I can throw around haha! https://youtu.be/xbngc04RxPg

I can't imagine what "screams" McDojo from that website. Jeese I wonder what people think of mine. May I ask what exactly makes you think that after looking at the site? People have different ideas but most seem to think of a McDojo as money making machines that are interested in the art less and the doe more. I feel that's accurate but also a place with simply underqualified instructors and not teaching anything remotely practical, that's me, but I don't get anything from any of this website you posted. A bit cheesy maybe, I prefer a more traditional old school feel but that's me, again. I'm very interested to know what made you point this website out to everybody here in relation to your question.

Solid post!! I once read about a Nidan that remained that rank forever, and is STILL a Nidan, but his experience and knowledge is of a High Dan Rank. Why still a Nidan? That's the last rank her earned from his Sensei before his Sensei passed away; respect for his Sensei. That's a very interesting thought. It's defiantly in line with what I'm trying to say about rank for sure. I like to think about it like this... you're not a black belt *because* you wear one, you are a black belt *so* you wear one. Honestly one of the things I enjoyed a lot about Kung fu was the lack of belts. There are many Kung fu schools that have adopted the belt system, many in fact call them sashes and they are soft like a scarf, but similar colors. Some still however, still have no belt system. It was a positive experience to step away from rank, and has helped for my opinion about rank as well. I hand out rank as a teacher because it's tradition and it's what people expect, and it also carries value, but sometimes I would just rather throw belts and rank out the door and teach! You know how many people there are that would pay Bruce Lee their life savings to have him teach them, and never ever ask what belt/rank he is? Belts are a great grading point and they are great for short term goals to accomplish, BUT they do as much bad as good and sometimes I can't decide which way the scale tips on the matter!

Exceptional post! I really like how you approached this argument. The last paragraph is a great ending point!

In Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu it's very common to teach at purple belt or even brown belt. I mean to say, you will come across schools run by these colored belts. In this art it can take up to ten years to achieve black belt. That being said it's not so much about the color belt as the experience and trying to say 3rd Dan or any fan should be a standard is difficult because there's just no way all schools have the same standard. I personally don't care what rank you are, because rank does as much bad as it does good, but I think it's important to understand your actual experience, not the rank which attempts to reflect this. I know a school in which students can make it to 2nd Dan in 2 years, basically a year per degree. I have been teaching over a year and a half and haven't promoted anybody to black belt, although one will test this month). Some of my students also trained in the previous program an maintained rank to top it off. I think it's fair to say 2nd Dan for me, and 2nd Dan for that said school are different which brings me to the point again, a standard rank across the board for schools is difficult. I don't care about rank, if your ready your ready, if the knowledge is there then go for it.

I like this. I practice this. I have my students that I think are cabpable and usually intermediate belt ranking, teach small groups some things. I think it's good for them.

So my issue is I honestly feel I can learn something in a video more efficient then some teachers can teach some people. That being said to assume that the correction is so important it makes the video learning useless is a bit hard to swallow. I agree Feedback is important and said that in this thread, BUT although I don't want to sound harsh, correction from some people may be less valuable then none at all lol. My point is that I think this is all subjective and depends on the person, as well as where it's coming from.

I would venture to say that us in the MA world have a leg up over the competition. A good instructor will teach things like respecting others and humbling yourself, which is a big thing in customer service. We're given the tools for that through our training, and it shows in our everyday lives. Yeah I would agree with that statement. Obviously it is something as you said, that is Bread into us. Very good point.

I humbly disagree, I feel that for a person with no experience an who has never been on a fight, and possibly has no ability to visualize this may be more true, but for a person who has experience, has been on a fight, and can visualize quite well, they would get more out of it then an aerobic workout.

Hey there neo, well I think this has come up plenty and I would say the biggest thing is feedback that matters most. In my opinion personally, some can learn better then others from video, or even a book. I mean, sure you can learn martial arts just as how to repair an engine from a book, it's not as easy of course, as a 16 year mechanic I can guide you easily and give you many quick pointers from experience and make learning tremendously easier then a book. It's no different then martial arts. I have learned things from books and videos, but it's tremendously easier to learn from a living, breathing human being. It's the feedback and interaction that makes learning best. The answer to "what makes a good teacher" is a similar answer to your question I think. On the topic of being in the middle of nowhere, or learning a martial art that just isn't in your area or even much in your state or country I can relate. There are some martial arts that lack in my area. On this note I see nothing wrong with learning from a book or video, one would need to work very hard to perfect without correction, and this may take researching multiple books or videos, but it can be done. The human interaction is important not only for the simple feedback but also to practice the techniques. Some martial arts like Karate for example offer more to learn on your own and not quite as much human interaction is necessary, much was meant to practice on your own with forms/kata,poomse,hyung. At some point it is hard to make it useful if you don't apply it with a partner. Hard to always punch in the air and then use it in battle of you never hit a moving target. I would say if one could do research and put in the time it's certainly an alternative to learn from a video/book but it's important to video yourself in my opinion, and dicey yourself. It's also, at some point important to find a partner to practice some things on a life person.