CredoTe

And from: This is exactly the problem I see with point based sparring, and why i think arts that focus on in-fighting, grappling and clinching (think Kyokushin, Judo and MuayThai) have an effective view on real world altercations. Distance will always be a deciding factor but as you stated, and in my experience, an aggressor will move into range and breach the distance before there is even a lot of intent to attack shown (or it will happen so quickly there is little time to reposition). While there is a good deal of validity in one hit "kill" mentality (Kyokushin is based on this principle largely) and moving in and out of range to get the single hit, being able to react when in contact with someone already is more reasonable when it actually comes to self defence IMHO. Once you learn to gain control of the inside so-to-speak, there is much mroe control for the duration of engagement. Absolutely! Great posts, Harkon72 and yamesu. The only thing that I would add, more of a clarification really, is that any Okinawan-te Karate (Shorin-Ryu, Goju-Rru, etc), when taught competently, has many aspects of in-fighting, takedowns, grappling, etc. These concepts are not just reserved for Kyokushin, Judo, Muay Thai, etc. This is one of the great misconceptions about Karate with the culprit largely being the world of Sport Karate / MAs (stop-go tourney point fighting stuff). Absolutely! I didnt by any means intend to convey that I thought these were the only arts that practiced such aspects, but these are the only ones I personally have experience in From the Shotokan I have been taught, its certainly effective! Additionally, having trained Goju with Sensei Hokama himself, I can say that it is quite effective (and painful!!!) too. I guess my point was that without practicing in fighting, clinching etc, there is a great deal of reality based training that is just not touched on. Prob should have thought about the wording better beofre I typed it out.... I'm with you, yamesu. I'm not trying to say you were wrong or relaying that only those styles you mentioned have in-fighting, grappling, etc. I was merely trying to clarify some things, mainly for those whom may be unfamiliar to Okinawan-te styles and Shotokan, to which you added some more good points. I agree, there are many MA schools out there that don't do enough training in real-world applications.

Jumping around for sake of moving out of the way is utterly worthless, you need to press your position, your advantage! If you have it to start with else you need to get the advantage fast! If in moving you 'deflect' the attack, then do so to gain advantage, to open up the attackers side (ribs/face you get the idea) and then with purpose strike! I make a distinct effort to say 'deflect' not block here. To be clear to block the attack outright will work, no doubt at all on that point, they almost expect it form you after all! Do NOT drop this from your training, keep it up! However for me I feel the deflect is the better option here, like Akido, I'm allowing the attacker and the attacks momentum to do the work for me, to pass me by! To have them offer me more! To block an attack is to stop the attack, stop is the elephant in the room here! We say stop but in our mind we have already queued up the next movement, another block, .....maybe with an attack on the end of that! (A combination response if you will) Why? Conditioning, plain and simple we expect a second attack, a second punch or kick, the combinations we go over again and again, we fight using combinations so we 'expect' a combination in return when attacked. So I say deflect, it takes 'them' past you at which point the second attack is lost your not where they meant to be so they have to reset...which for you is great your on the attack at this point! Ah no your not you went in to defense mode for the second attack. Take the center and hold it. No I do not mean the center of the ring/mat, I mean the area that is created by you and your assailant (Think Dirty dancing - your space my space..) take 'that' center. Hold it control it, if you defend anything defend that! Consider the block and attack backwards, in reverse for a moment. Block as attack and attack as block. To block an attack is to launch your own strike this is two actions, make it one! As you block make sure you do so with the idea of hurting the limb of the inbound weapon....to attack. A punch comes at you, we block it or deflect it...no ....do neither hit it! This one sounds a little mad but truthfully we all do it today and have been doing so for ages, we simply do not realize it. We all react to the shoulder movement, so now rather than queue up a block, launch an attack. Attack as defense. As the shoulder moves, punch it! Attack as defense! Seriously try it work in the dojo in pairs, one punches, you defend by punching the arm! Swap and repeat. Defense as attack! When a punch comes in hit the forearm. Defense as attack! You will both realize very VERY fast its not the power of the hit (it never was) its the pain from the repeated hitting of that spot on the attacks arm that has them consider other options, to not hit as much with that arm...there fast arm, there best arm.......ah your new found advantage! Great post! Very thought provoking...

Thanks for the insight, and welcome to KF.

And from: This is exactly the problem I see with point based sparring, and why i think arts that focus on in-fighting, grappling and clinching (think Kyokushin, Judo and MuayThai) have an effective view on real world altercations. Distance will always be a deciding factor but as you stated, and in my experience, an aggressor will move into range and breach the distance before there is even a lot of intent to attack shown (or it will happen so quickly there is little time to reposition). While there is a good deal of validity in one hit "kill" mentality (Kyokushin is based on this principle largely) and moving in and out of range to get the single hit, being able to react when in contact with someone already is more reasonable when it actually comes to self defence IMHO. Once you learn to gain control of the inside so-to-speak, there is much mroe control for the duration of engagement. Absolutely! Great posts, Harkon72 and yamesu. The only thing that I would add, more of a clarification really, is that any Okinawan-te Karate (Shorin-Ryu, Goju-Rru, etc), when taught competently, has many aspects of in-fighting, takedowns, grappling, etc. These concepts are not just reserved for Kyokushin, Judo, Muay Thai, etc. This is one of the great misconceptions about Karate with the culprit largely being the world of Sport Karate / MAs (stop-go tourney point fighting stuff).

And from: Absolutely. Nothing for me to add.

Since Shotokan is a derivative of Shorin-Ryu and other Okinawan-te arts, I would think it has at least some ability for in-fighting. I can't say for sure since I'm not a Shotokan practitioner, but Shorin-Ryu definitely has a lot of in-fighting techniques. Yeah, any MA school that doesn't engage in any sort of kumite practice is doing somewhat of a disservice. Even if they just did light contact continuous sparring they would be teaching their students a lot about how things work in a real situation. It is much the same here in the States. I have a similar outlook about it, as well. Very annoying, indeed. Lol... SPOT ON... Great share, Wastelander

My pleasure, sir When you're in limbo like that, keeping up with fitness, flexibility, and current training is all you can do.

This, as well as many other posts here, is what's happening because of the tempo and the like of today's karate tournaments. Hit once, wait for point...over and over...this drives me crazy. I'm of the opinion that this type of tempo will translate to the streets, and having said that, the attacker(s) will continue beating the tar out of that MAist. Imho!! Hey sensei8, I don't quite understand what you're getting at. Could you clarify for me? We're definitely not doing our blocks the way we do to train for stop-and-wait tourney sparring...

And from: Agreed. While it's possible an experienced MA may have a better go at learning from a book than a newbie, s/he still won't get the full training needed to progress.

Great post What you mentioned about stances being closed to protect your legs / groin is key. That's part of shime (to close) and involves your whole body moving in such ways to always protect your kill zone. Additionally, stances / movement also involves tanden (posture / control of your center of gravity). Thus, you're always moving in ways that protects your kill zone AND controls your center of gravity. Yes, I remember that Reeses commercial with the two guys that crash their cars into each other, one eating peanut butter, the other eating chocolate...

Thanks, Wastelander, and it's cool... I figured you were trying to give as much as you felt comfortable. That's why I didn't say you were wrong. Our karate's are like 1st cousins...

Welcome to KF! I hope the beginning of your MA journey has been good. You have the rest of your life to make your journey great.

Our hard blocks are always practiced in unison with a barai (check / deflect / redirect). When we kosa shime to prep the block, our one hand performs a barai, the other executes the hard block to do damage or break. We never leave it like that, either. Once the hard block connects, it's immediately followed by many strikes, or locks, takedown, grapple, etc.

As someone who converted to Shorin-Ryu (Kobayashi) from a style heavily influenced by Japanese karate, and someone who currently trains with a Shotokan yudansha converting to Shorin-Ryu, I might be able to provide a little insight. The stances are not as low, and most of the places your kata have kokutsu-dachi, Shorin-Ryu uses neko-ashi-dachi, so that is a bit of a difficult transition to make. After stances, I would say power generation is the next biggest problem. Japanese styles tend to be very hard styles that put a lot of power into everything, but Shorin-Ryu is softer and has more emphasis on fluidity. Great post... Most of what Wastelander says is correct, but needs some clarification. I've been a Matsubayashi-Ryu guy for over 20 years, so here goes... Stances & Movement: the best way that I can think of how to describe our stances is that they're deep, not long. Our stances only have two levels: natural standing and crouched. In any of the crouched stances (zenkutsu dachi, nekoashi dachi, jigotai / shiko dachi, naichanchi dachi, etc), the knees are bent far enough to be in a straight line over your toes. For instance, our horse / square / wide-leg stances (naihanchi / shiko / jigotai, they're very close to the same thing) aren't nearly as long or wide as what you probably know as kiba dachi. We don't really do kiba dachi in Matsubayashi-Ryu. However, because our knees are bent deep enough to be over our toes, these "horse" stances are considered deep, but again, not long or too wide. Same with zenkutsu, nekoashi, etc. In any case, all of the crouched stances are the same height. The height of your zenkutsu dachi = shiko dachi = nekoashi dachi = kokutsu dachi, etc. The biggest difference I can think of between Matsubayashi-Ryu and hard Japanese karate is that all stances / movement are based upon natural movements / positions of your body. The reason for this from Matsubayashi-Ryu standpoint is that the longer a stance is, the more time it takes to move from it. Our stances are deep so we can properly apply fighting aspects of Iri kumi (in fighting) and tegumi (takedowns, bars, locks, grappling, etc) and still move. Hard vs Soft: it's true that Matsubayashi-Ryu is fluid, but it is still hard. It's hardness comes at the moment of impact against our opponent. Whether it's a strike, kick, block, trap, lock, takedown, etc... It's like a bundle of iron chains with iron balls at the ends. It moves in a natural, fluid manner, and strikes in a natural, fluid manner; the moment a striking arm or leg makes contact with an opponent, these iron chains and balls solidify into iron bars for a split second long enough to strike through the target. Power Generation: Power generation starts with good tachi development to root you to the earth to help develop the idea of drawing from the earth through the legs. From there, the legs direct energy to and through the hips. This is the beginning of what's known as gamaku. The hips direct what was drawn through it to the rest of the body to whatever arm or leg the karateka is striking with. It's not just hips (not just "koshi koshi koshi"); the hips turn the body. Your body has a "gamaku zone": think of it as extending from the bottom of your thighs just above your knees up to about your diaphragm; almost like a batter's strike zone in baseball. Your hips initiate movement of this gamaku zone, but is not the only thing that moves. The entire gamaku zone moves as a unit, like a centrifuge, and directs power to your target via your arms or legs or whatever. Kata: there are numerous differences in the kata movements between Matsubayashi-Ryu and Shotokan. There are 18 individual kata and 7 partner kata (Yakusoku Kumite). There's too much to mention, but there will be enough similarities that you shouldn't have too much trouble picking it up. IMHO, what's going to trip you up is the difference in footwork, body movement, stances, etc. Nuances: the nuance you'll have to get used to the most is pronunciation of certain things. For instance, in Shorin-Ryu (Matsubayashi-Ryu or any of the others), what you know as the Heian kata are known as the Pinan (pro. "PEE-nahn") kata. There's probably going to be many little nuances like this that will just take time to get used to. Remember, Matsubayashi-Ryu is the "youngest" of the four main branches of Shorin-Ryu. Osensei Nagamine was a student of several of the great karate masters of the 1800's that were part of the other three main "Shorin-Ryu" styles. So, Matsubayashi-Ryu shares many things in common with "Matsumura / Shuri-te", Kobayashi-Ryu, and Shobayashi-Ryu. For more Matsubayashi-Ryu specific info, check out: http://www.matsubayashi-ryu.com/ Please feel free to ask me any further questions here, or you can pm me. Also, if the dojo you will be joining has a Web site, see what they have to offer. If you share their site, I may be able to take a look and give you MHO whether they're cool or blowing smoke.

Absolutely... Of the MAs I know personally, my two instructors have had the most influence on me, and therefore they are "the best" to me. Subsequent to that, the higher ranked instructor that's over my CI, he's a tough-as-nails bear, and is a great MA and instructor, but I haven't worked out with him nearly as much as my two primary instructors. At large, I'm not sure who would qualify as "the best". As folks have pointed out, having a title of "the best" is difficult and ever-changing. We could start with modern day with folks like Paul Vunak who's involved in training US Navy SEALs (is there anyone here can verify whether he's still doing that or not? ), or any of the top MMA athletes, then back in history to folks like Bruce Lee, Yip Man, the Okinawan Karate Osenseis and Chinese Kung Fu masters of the 1700's - early 1900's, and so on back. Internally, in a life and death situation, I must believe that I am the best MA; don't get me wrong, this is not about my ego / pride. We quite often tell our students that at anytime there's someone out there better than you. But, in the instance of a life and death situation, I (or you) must be the best MA in that situation, to have the right mindset to deal with the situation appropriately (which includes deescalation, diffusion, and / or running away!), because the instant that doubt sets in, then the battle is already half-lost. My instructors aren't going to be there to save me, Bruce Lee, Yip Man, or Paul Vunak aren't going to be there, it's just me and the aggressor(s).

Ooohhhh....I like it!! Yes..! Ditto! Sums it up pretty well, bushido_man

AH.... You beat me to it... One of the best...

Yes, we often tell our students that at any time, there's always someone out there who's better than you and can take you out. Humbleness and awareness

I have pretty quick hands and feet, but I don't move my body fast because of my body type. Therefore, I am like a slow machine. I don't run around the mat when sparring, I don't flash in and out of range, I don't like to waste movements. Once I'm in, I tend to stay there and throw a lot of quick, powerful shots, followed by a takedown, lock, or grapple of some sort. I'm less like a helicopter or aerial fighter, more like a tank with fast guns.

Great bunkai/oyo... Your video shows that you're truly understanding the fighting aspects of the Naihanchi kata, particularly the Iri-kumi (in fighting) aspects. Awesome...

Great post, bushido_man96, and you make some good points. I think you're probably right that the "McDojo" label gets tossed around a lot, and that some dojos are errantly labeled. But, I've visited many schools in my area, and IME, the McDojos have the upper hand. Maybe it's just my area in Ohio, and maybe it's just IMHO... Many of the McDojos I visited had positive, energetic instructors that are great at what they do in their dojos / tournaments. Trying to make money doesn't make one a McDojo, I agree. Tournaments / competition in and of themselves aren't necessarily bad. While we certainly don't push tournaments on our students, when we have students that want to go to one, we support them. If they're a first-timer, we instruct them in how tournaments function; the difference between the kumite we do and how tournament sparring works, etiquette, kata, etc. We instruct them that there are good things about tournaments, like practicing with people they don't know. If a student joins an MA strictly as a sport, like any sport, that can foster good things. However, training strictly for tournaments doesn't have real bearing for self-defense. If they're not training for self-defense, that's OK. But, it's like you said, it is the instructor's job to explain the difference. What I am alluding to, and what's part of the heart of the issue at the McDojos I experienced, is that they try to pass off their tournament styles as "the real Karate / MA that works in any situation". I think they will die off unless we figure out how to change; not necessarily a particular art itself, but maybe training methods, or something. Again, we need to look at ourselves to figure out what needs changed, and to others to get an idea of how to change.

I think some kids just get to the point that they are either burning out a bit, or have done something so long they fall into a rut. They need a jolt, something to wake them up again. And some kids do just "go through the motions." Yeah, for some of our kids that get burned out, we advise their parents to take a little break and come back in a few weeks, month, etc. That tends to work for those kids. For the kids that need a jolt, the difficulty is finding what works to "jolt them". I'm not sure I've found a good solution to that...

I believe he would be. The scenario you describe is similar to the really old masters, whom due to age and / or other natural debilitation, cannot physically train much anymore. The sheer volume of knowledge and experience they could impart to students would be invaluable. I agree, as well. I think that there are a lot of shades of grey in this question, and depending on the circumstances, one could decide either way. If someone just ups and quits the MAs, then what? Not a black belt, because they choose to stop training? I can see how some would say no, not a black belt anymore. But then again, I could argue how could it be taken away? The belt can be physically taken from us, true. But how many of us then make the argument that the belt isn't what's important, but the knowledge and experience is? It really is a tough question to answer. Shades of grey is a good summation of it. In the end it just comes down to personal opinion. My personal opinion on your above scenario is the same as my previous one. If they are still actively exercising the knowledge side of it and actively retaining that information, say still thinking about moves and applications and still learning, then yes they are still a blackbelt. If they stopped training physically (through no fault of their own) but also subsequently stopped mentally training then they are a former blackbelt. Quite often we talk about blackbelt being the beginning of one's training and that the journey doesn't stop once you reach 1st dan. And I think that's a key concept to being a blackbelt - you are still learning. "Dan" 段 does mean "step" after all so you've got to keep climbing to be still be called a blackbelt. IMHO, both of your responses, bushido_man96 and DWx, really illustrate that this subject is truly watery, the difficulty in assigning absolution to it. There's so many ways it could go. Also, IMHO, that's what makes this subject usually a dojo-by-dojo issue; each dojo will deal with it differently. If there are any absolutes in this, IMHO, I think they're along the lines of what sensei8 mentioned: In that, in a legitimate black belt practitioner, s/he will always be a black belt in her/his own heart regardless of exterior circumstances. But, then again, this starts the cycle anew when it comes to formal recognition... and on and on it goes.... where the gray sphere stops, nobody knows...

Wait.... Isn't that kind of what KF is..? 'cept with the positive notion of keeping it going?

Congrats! Well done!