delta1

karlberg, good enough. Actually, most knife defenses I've seen are a little questionable (though i have seen some good ones in many different styles). American Kenpo has some specific empty hands > knife techniques at upper levels. But, generally, the highest form of AK is to use your basic techniques/principles & concepts both against and with a knife. Knife fighting incorporates a few more principles & concepts, but they are easily fit into our base skills and used.

Dual Style/System I chose that because MMA , to me, implies that you'd have more than my very limmited exposure to grappling. I would probably say that I'm more of a 'style/system plagerist', as everything comes back to Kenpo for me in the end. But, that wasn't an option, so... .

OK. But, the whole point of these CQC courses, including KM, is that they are a quickly learned set of skills that work for anyone and are easily applied effectively. If you want to pick and choose, you probably need a more comprehensive art. True of most arts. Some even train you to use your own cuts against your opponent. Fear of infection from blood contact is one obviouse tool, but not allways effective. Another is a cut on your arm that causes blood to run to your fingertips. Flick the blood into his eyes. Not only takes advantage of fear of infection, if he's prone to that, but possibly interferes with his vision. Will probably distract him for a moment. But, more than that, the smell of the adrenalin in your blood can induce fear in your opponent, while useing the injury instead of worrying about it can have a positive effect on your state of mind. OK, but, as you pointed out, you are now debilitated, less effective, and time is on his side. Also, with the type of injury I'm talking about if that knife is withdrawn through a hard clenched elbow, you probably have a major injury that effects muscle, tendons, and major nerves and blood vessels. You immediately loose the use of that arm, and are in seriouse trouble- probably going very quickly (if not immediately) into the advanced stages of shock. The practitioners were experienced. I indicated that I've seen very little KM in my post. I also said it was not enough to form an opinion on the entire system. I also said I saw some good things, but pointed out a couple of things that bothered me. And, I asked FD to try an experiment as a practitioner of KM andan experienced martial artist, and to let me know how it goes. I'm not trashing your system, but I am saying there may be problems there. For the record, I think there are a couple of problems or defficiencies in my base (Kenpo), and have said so on this forum before. And, I cross train. So don't be offended by my pointing out what might be some problems in your system. Instead, I'd suggest experimenting to see if you think I might have a point, and maybe adjusting if you conclude I'm correct. If not, continue as you are and post details of your findings. If you were able to counter my proposed counter to your pin, how did you do it? What do your instructors say about it? Frankly, that is what matters. But never close your mind or think you've learned all you can, even from a short CQC course. Continue to tweek the system so that it works better for you. Go outside your base to gain better understanding of how your base works, and sometimes to find things to bring back and incorporate with your base. Sorry you took offense, but I still think there may be a couple of problems, based on my "very limmited" experience with KM.

You mean strangulation? To choke is to cut off air, not blood. Any 'choke hold' that cuts off the carotid arteries will shut off the major blood supply to the brain (there is actually a third artery to the brain, but it is insufficient to maintain consciousness or prevent brain dammage if the carotids are compromised). But shuting of the carotid arteries for even a brief time is very dangerouse. It can send the wrong signals internally and shut down breathing. Be very careful with your 'chokes'- they are nothing to take lightly. I'd always have a knowlegable observer whenever practicing chokes. I'm not a grappler, but I used to train ambulance crews and have field experience with this. It is so easy to kill someone like this that checking the carotid pulse incorrectly can do it.

47MM, forgive me if I'm a little skeptical, but that just doesn't match with what I'v heard about Huk Planas. He himself started in other arts, and continues to cross train. Why would he refuse to teach another stylist? Except, of course, that as far as I know, he's only done seminars for years. I've never met the man, and from the sounds of it you may not have either. Are you sure they aren't just pulling your leg? Or, maybe who you met was, after all, R. Plantas. I don't know...

Richard ('Huk') Planas- anyone that does American Kenpo for long, and most Ken/mpoists, have heard of him. A Fillipino-American, he learned FMA's as a child. Was introduced to American Kenpo by some of his high school friends, and is one of the most respected AK seniors today, by both AK and other systems seniors. AK immediatetly was adopted as his base, but he still cross trained in other systems, especially FMA's. He was promoted to 7th by Mr. Parker. He was promoted to 8th, sanctioned by the World Wide Kenpo Karate Association, headed by Joe Palanzo. Mr. Planas was aproached by some of his senior Kenpoists to be promoted to 9th, but he balked because he's allways had an aversion to rank chasing. The story is he never asked for any promotion, but was allways promoted as instructors and seniors recognized his ability. Mr. Planas said he'd consider promotion only if sanctioned by signed petitions of the seniors. He recieved an avalanche of petitions from not only the senior Kenpoists, but from seniors in other systems as well. Bill Wallace administered the cerimonial kick at his promotion. That in itself (in more ways than one!) would qualify anyone to any rank! Most of this can be found in the book 'The Journey', in which 24 of the most influential Kenpoists are honored. Mr. Planas' section starts on page 134.

Center line control. If he is at angle controled by you, you decrease the effectivness of half his offensive and defensive weapons while maintaining all yours in full battery. The downside is that your centerline is a little more open to attack if you allways face him squarely. Every system aproaches centerline control differently, but all combative systems have to address it. For example, AK faces the opponent primarily at 45'. But one way we attack center is to find an open triangle in his guard or stance and square up as we simultaneously attack. Another way to control center is to get a dominant angle and check his base as you attack. Centrline control is mostly a matter of the concepts your system stresses and what you are comfortable with. But it is a good idea to know how and why youre system addresses it in a particular way, as well as how the other guy does it.

The difference is simple: intent! Most of the posts have alluded to this in one way or another, but I think this one word summs it all up nicely. Once you realize that the intent is different in sparing vs. a real fight, you can adjust the intent of your sparing to address the intent of a real fight. First and foremost, start thinking of sparing as training for the real thing and not as a competition. Leave your ego in the dressing room. If you aren't getting the crap beat out of you periodically, you aren't trying to learn and work on new skills; you're not pushing yourself with tougher opponents. You are training in a relatively safe environment to take on the conditions in a violent and dangerouse confrontation- spar like it! Pad up and go at it with contact sometimes. And don't tell us that you are able to go at it without pads because it is more realistic. *! I've been there, and the less protection you have, the more you and your partner have to adjust your intent when you fight in order not to hurt each other. If you think you're that tough, you'll learn more by hitting the streets and going at it with real intent. Whatever trips your trigger, but I know one excellent senior TKDist that trained that way. He and a friend would go to the biker bars in the 60's and pick fights to try out their skills. He has arthritus worse than me now, and he came close to being permanently disabled or killed a few times. He doesn't recomend the method, and for once I think I'll listen to experience instead of trying it myself. When your intent is to learn, you look for ways to make sparing more realistic. Add stress to the fight (which should be the subject of a whole new thread), work around obstacles and on varrying surfaces, and with different shoes. Add weapons, and stert the sparing session with a scenario where the conflict builds to a sudden explosion of violence, or you are sudenly jumped. Find a building you can set up as a 'house of horrors'. Spar in low light. If you can afford it, get a couple of full body suits and go almost NHB- which means that ground is an option, by the way. Some people don't like the suits because they restrict your movement and slow you down. But, think about it. Ever experience fear, or the hyperadrenalized state of conflict? The effect is called 'tachypsyche', where your brain speeds up to the point your body feels like it's moving through mollasses. Put on the suit and train for that feeling, as well as the hits! The more protection you have, the more strikes you can train to throw and defend. The short of it is that you need to adjust the intent of your sparing to the reality of the intent in a fight.

I've seen Datu Kelly Worden do that with lock flows. He usually picks the biggest guy in the class, lets him attack, then immediately counters with a joint lock. That in itself is impressive enough. There are very few who can reliably apply a joint lock without first setting up their opponent. Then Datu proceeds to lecture, turning and casually making eye contact with the entire class, answering questions sometimes, looking for all the world like a college prof giving a lecture and almost paying no attention to his victim as he goes through the lock flow. Meanwhile, the poor guy is floping all over the place. When he does it, it's worth the price of his seminar just for the opportunity to see that!

Let me try out. "SHOW ME THE MONEY!" How's that? Do I get the job? That's "Show ME the money!" NEXT... DM, three weeks? My, fame is fleeting! (Or is it just MY fame is fleeting? Pretty confusing...) Kicks, thanks.

You'd send flowers?

Wap C is correct (even if he is joking). TCC is a very effective , fast, and well rounded martial art. But finding a school that teaches it as a combative style is hard to do.

Well, this is not necessarily a bad thing for a guy in college. If you are married, different story. But unless there's a promise or comitment of some kind, it's not cheating. And I've had girlfriends (one in particular) that made me verry happy by fooling around 'behind my back'! As Mel Gibson said just before he died as Wallace: "FREEEEDOMMMME!!!!!!!!!!!"

Dang, Monkey, you get ornery when you are drunk! And a little silly, too... 'civic engineers' are called Urban Planners and/or politicians. Did you, perchance, mean civil? You really have to turn me on to whatever you're drinking!

KKK? I've heard of them! Kiddin ya, of course. Good luck in your new class. I think you'll enjoy it. I've been through the Midland-Odesa area a few times. Stoped at the Confederate Air Force Museum. Really great! They flew a couple of their B-17's into Spokane a few years ago. Those old planes had a class and grace the newer ones will never have. I think they have a chapter over by Seattle somewhere, which means I'll never see it. I'm almost more likely to go back to M-O than Seapit!

Hey, big guy! Where you been hiding? Good to hear from you. Couple of questions. First off, that type of trap where you pin his weapon hand in the bent crook of an arm would only work on an untrained, inexperienced fighter, it seems to me. Someone that knows what he's doing would not give you that kind of commitment. Are there any other types of weapons defenses that are stressed in KM that would work for an experienced opponent? Next, you are a MT fighter, so you obviously understand aggression, know how to work angles and use elbows. I'm curiouse about how this would work on a trained KM guy. Take a practice knife and put lipstick on the cutting surfaces (Kiss of Death ). Make sure to have him pick a color that he likes, as I suspect he may as well get some Rit Dye for his uniform while he's getting the lipstick . Attack with your right (knife) hand. As he traps and steps in to his strike, assume that the pin is solid- in fact, let him get a solid pin to see if this works. Immediately counter by pivoting on the ball of your left foot and delivering an upward elbow to his chin. If he's not close enough to pivot and reach, step in with your left and elbow strike. If you get inside his punch, you jack his jaw. If outside (more likely, since his punch is crossing in and your reaction probably won't beat his action unless he telegraphed) you drive his punch up and across, crossing him up and taking his ballance. Outside, bring that elbow up and across to get the proper angle and to protect your head. Either way, you'll loosen that pin. But, I think this will work on even an experienced KMer, because the compound angles you create give leverage to your pull as well as take the angle he was counting on to make that pin work away from him. Also, using leverage and angles, the knife doesn't just jerk free and cut as it comes out (bad enough in itself). It turns and slices deep, and comes out in a controled manner, close in and ready to deliver the fatal strike. If you got inside, it is pointed at his throat. Quickly stab upto his throat or under his jaw. If you got outside, continue to track downward to thrust into his solar plex, turning the knife upward to be sure and get into his diaphram. And don't forget to check his forward knee, limmiting his movement and further taking his ballance. If you could, try that with your instructor and see what he says or how he deals with it. Let us know how it went (and what color he chose)!

Didn't say anything about other arts, and I qualified my statement about KM by saying I'd like to see it done right (assuming there is a better way) before I draw conclusions on its' efficacy. But, what I've seen, which isn't much, was not good. Another example, when I see someone step in and lean waaaaay in to a punch, I think "Gift from the war gods!" It might do a lot of dammage if it connects. But if he slips it and cranes the arm, it's all over for the KM guy. KM has some good things as well, like I said. Their use of training under stress is excellent. Same with the simple, direct, instinctive moves. But there seems to be some dangerouse moves also. To be fair, this is a common problem with CQC courses. They are designed to be learned quickly, and yet still be effective. They are usually extremely aggressive, brutal, and tend to be direct. It's a winner take all mindset, which is appropriate for the situations they are training for. Problem is, you don't allways 'win'. That pin isn't as solid as it should be, and his natural reaction is to jerk the knife hand free. The direction of the force of your strike not only aids that move, but adds an element of urgency to the withdrawal. You may smash his face, but if that was a double edged knife he was using, you just got your bicep and inside your forearm cut. Another example, SCARS (we'll pick on someone else a bit) teaches to always 'land' forward from a kick. Their reasoning is that if you connect, you will drive them back, and you want an unrelenting attack with constant forward pressure. Not a bad thing. Wing Chun uses this. But, the difference is that WC stays in ballance and control so that if the kick does not connect, they can 'plant' in ballance and continue their attack. A true martial artist never gives up his ballance or overcommits his momentum. But, in a lot of CQC courses, you assume the attack is successful for the sake of expediting the class. KM does this with that overcommited punch I mentioned. What I see is that SCARS can be tweeked a little- the circles tightened up, stances and footwork modified- and it can be a viable system. But, if KM teaches things like traping a weapon hand in the crook of your arm, that is something that is dangerously wrong, no matter how much you tweek it. I still think the best CQC stuff is from WWII combatives- Fairbane/Sykes & Applegate). Simple, direct, brutally effective, and allways in ballance. Quickly learned as well. But I'd still say that you should continue to add to your base, no matter what CQC course you study. My opinion, your mileage may varry.

Book deal? Movie rights? Now I need an agent! And you can forget it, Monkey- you're still paying off that heart! This is a rough gig. Who knew?!

http://www.thatlumox.com/Budweiser/Clips/groin.mp3

Here's a source for quality equipment, some of which I havn't been able to get from martial arts suppliers: http://www.ringside.com/ They specialize in Boxing and Kickboxing/Muay Thai supplies and equipment, but a lot of this is useful for martial artists of any system. Service is good, quality is excellant, and they have a good selection of products. Prices are good, but reflect their quality. Some of the things they have that interested me: *120" to 170" handwraps *'Opponent ball' that attatches to your heavy bag chain and swings as you strike, giving a more realistic workout. *Arm that straps onto your heavy bag or dummy. *Offset hung headache bag that is more unpredictable when it returns at you. *Really good groin abdomen protectiv gear. *Good videos. They aren't glitzy and ultraprofessional. But they are understandable and packed with good info. The ones I have are 'The Speed Bag Bible' (book and video) and 'Wrapping Hands' (video). Thanks to Patrick for letting me post this. I still recomend 'shoping at home' (the KF store) when they have what you want. He provides a great forum, and something has to pay the way. But this site is worth checking out. DISCLAIMER: This is a public service message from the delta. Not affiliated or connected to Ringside Inc. Terms and restrictions are between you and them, so don't whine to me if you don't like it. Most items not available to those who are broke. See site for details.

You'll get better, and you should stick it out. First, doesn't TKD have a large Shotokan influence? Probably some differences, but enough alike to not be alien to you. I'd suggest looking at this as an opportunity to get a different perspective, review basics, and keep up training. Learn something new. Show them (and yourself) some discipline by your example. Just because they are lax doesn't mean you have to be. Talk to the instructor about sparing with some of the upper level students. Maybe suggest sparing with him so he can evaluate your abilities and match you apropriately. As a BB, you should have enough of a grasp on the arts to learn more rapidly, as well as to see the similarities and differences and where the systems can be merged. Go for the deeper understanding, which will keep things more interesting. I'll qualify this advice in that, if the class is so bad that it is a distraction and hinderance to learning, leave. If the instructor has insufficient knowlege, or is not interested in helping you, leave. You might be able to start a TKD club on campus and get use of their facilities. TKD is so popular, I can't see any sizable campus not having some practitioners interested in keeping up their skills. Good luck!

American Kenpo- clock starts in the 50's, when Ed Parker started developing it. The last really significant changes he made were probably 20 25 yrs ago. But the art is designed to change and be changed perpetually. It is supposed to change in response to new threats or methods. It is changed by the practitioner to suit his style and as he progresses.

Welcome to the forum, karlberg! Most all the short, quickly learned reality combatives arts rely heavily on the principle of instinctive reaction. But just putting up your hand, especially against a knife, is going to get you hurt. A lot of 'complete' systems, like Kenpo, also use this a lot. Again, true of most short combative systems. And a good thing. That, as I said earlier, is one of the things I admire about KM. I'm not just dumping on KM. I'd like to see it done right before making a decission as to its' effectiveness. But what little I've seen was inefective to the point of being dangerouse to the practitioner. Things like traping a knife hand in the crook of your arm as you step in to strike his face. If you don't get cut in his attack, you are forcing him to toa reaction that will certainly cut you if that pin wasn't rock solid- and chances are good that in a real fight it won't be. Could you explain in more detail about the defense against a punch or knife attack where you just put your hand up to intercept it? Do you move the target, or just block? Are there any differences in the punch defense and the knife defense?

Red, good to hear you came through it all right! Hope the cleanup goes ok and the dammages were minimal.

Now, Drunk, be nice! Thanks, guys. Red, where do I send my expense account for travel to 'ambassadize' the kenpo/kempo arts?