Kusotare

Several have tried, but I haven't lost one yet K.

Depends how you train them. As you say they are attributes, but that in itself doesn't necessarily qualify what you are doing as "self defence" K.

Ewwww... that's pretty gross. Plus it has nothing to do with tradition or respect. http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/09/09/urban-legends-of-karate-belts/ I was joking

No,no... You have that wrong - we never wash our belts as it would be disrespectful to the ryu-ha! Also, we never let our belts touch the floor - again a mark of disrespect. K.

Well, it wasn't actually me (or JusticeZero) that is famed for saying that - it came originaly from Otsuka sensei. K.

And perhaps that sillyness around "thinking" you practice self defence...? K.

I'd hope you hadn't seen that in this thread? K.

Again, I'm not sure what you are alluding to here, but I don't get to eat that many steak dinners - let alone treat others to them. I'm more of a meat and two veg fella - just doing my best to keep it real. K.

Who has done that then? K.

I think I know where JusticeZero is coming from. Just because something has been done for a long time - doesn't mean it's the most expeditious way to do something - I get that. Tradition doesn't always equal efficiency. But... we are looking at a much bigger picture here imo

Is there? You got me on that one!

Wouldn't it be better just to put the tyre on a fire to let the rubber melt off the wire!? This thead has turned out interesting lol

I'm not sure I understand what you mean? Why would you want to act "all mysterious and macho and treacherous and elitist" Maybe I am missing something, but to my way of thinking, it couldn't be more basic - just train!?! K.

The most practical Karate is the one you get the most out of imo. K.

No disrespect, but I can lecture about situational awareness and adrenal coping strategies all day long - but there’s no substitute for actually doing (over and over again)... My point is - maybe we should be less eager to fly the flag of SD (given how much is involved) and focus on the real life saving attributes of studying a decent Traditional MA – and getting back onto the main topic - that’s why I genuinely think they have longevity and people will continue to train in them and enjoy the benefits that come with that. As my instructor once said -There is no secret to understanding martial arts – there is only training. K.

Most Japanese Jujutsu/Judo/Aikido dojo always start keiko with Ukemi. Ukemi is more than learning how to break fall. It's a body conditioning tool - it’s also one hell of a good workout in itself. When you say years of being Uke? That’s not my experience. You learn to throw and be thrown in equal measure. Actually if anything - the role of Uke is most correctly played by the more senior students at first, so beginners can get to grips with the technique itself. K.

How is that not "forging your spirit"? It is, but that's my point. You don't get that kind of thing in the average Karate dojo. If you do, (and I mean really do) then fine - all credit to you. Fact is, most modern dojo cater for folk who can train 2, 3 or 4 times a week at best. What with the technical content of their curriculum, the physical side of training (not to mentions the cultural and cerebral side of things) - there doesn't tend to be a lot of dojo time left over to repetitive de-sensitisation and multiple pressure testing scenarios required to convert what you learn in the dojo to really functional SD. So, you play to your strength. Don't you, well I do? K.

I'm just being realistic! K.

I agree, but do not confuse being able to do a movement combatively or technically correctly - with being applicable to self defence. Don't get me wrong, they are not mutually exclusive, but SD is a whole different ball park. As much as anything it’s about mental attitude / conditioning and being able to manage exposure to real life / high pressure situations. I flatter myself that I'm not too shoddy at Karate and Jujutsu, but I’m not deluded! I know that it takes a lot more than technique to be able to handle yourself when your adrenalin has just gone through the roof - as a result of your body being paralysed by fear. I’m not talk about the “live” training that we all say we do in the dojo, I’m talking about the kind of stuff that the RBSD guys do (in Redman suits etc) the real nasty stuff that knocks the stuffing out of you. If you can put your hand on your heart and truly say that you have really pressure tested yourself - and as a result you have the ability to override your body’s natural response systems, regularly and without fear of contradiction - then congrats, you probably can classify yourself as being able to do self defence. Otherwise be happy that you are practicing a decent martial art to a high standard but as I say don't delude yourself. I kind of look at it reverse to that of MasterPain. I practice traditional Martial Arts with a view to improving myself (the forging of the spirit as it were) as part of that process gaining combative competence is key, but at best – being able to defend yourself is a part of the process – a spin off as it were, but not the driving reason in the first place. We all look at life through the prism of MA, but depending on our experiences we may not always see the same thing. K.

I have noticed something that I hope you guys don't get offended by... It seems to me that, in the USA, there is much greater emphasis (in terms of what the zenith of martial arts is) on self defence!? I could be wrong, but I wondered to myself this morning whether this was connected to your right to bear arms legislation within your constitution. Not literally of course, but I wonder if a school that DIDN'T promote that "ideal"- would it be seen to be weak - from a marketing perspective. Just a thought. K.

To expand on my previous point about self defence being a “by-product”... Of course it doesn’t need to be – it could be your primary reason for training or indeed high up there for the reasons behind it, but here’s the thing… With Shin budo like Aikido, you have to get better at the techniques (combatively speaking) in order to progress, but paradoxically, if your focus is set firmly within the bounds of self defence, you risk drifting further away from the systems core ideals – it’s counter intuitive in a way! To my way of thinking, by prioritising you're learning, in terms of how effective your SD within Aikido (see also other traditional gendai arts) you risk throwing the baby out with the bath water – and frankly could mis the bigger picture. But to each their own. K.

If we are still talking about Aikido here, defensive effectiveness is, at best, a happy by-product, but Budo (or more correctly ”shin budo”) is its reason d’être. K.

Aikido as a system is a not about self defence. If we are talking about the techniques found in Aikido, well, I'd agree to a limited extent (but even then, they were techniques developed long before aikido was formalised (in Daito-ryu etc.)). Aikido itself is about Budo, or more specifically "Seishin Tanren" or spiritual forging. K.

Aikido is not a self defense art. But I understand what you mean. K.

That's slightly different. That is to do with extra reach on the piste and to avoid counter strike. K.