Kusotare

Welcome my world lol. Your comments are right on the money as far as I can see - so please don't hang the gloves up just yet! Unfortunaletly in a world where poeple want results straight away, the idea of a kata designed to embed core "principles" - over combative application is a difficult one to grasp for some. K.

Once a transmition is broken it's never going to be the same again. An important factor in training Koryu is the bonding you get with your instructor and fellow students. It's a physical/organic thing as much as anything else. My instructor guides me by correcting me with his hands in the same way his instructor used his hands to corrected him and so on... Never going to be the same if something is broken and rediscovered 200 years later. K.

Most western sword traditions practiced today have been “re-established” in modern times by enthusiasts working, in the most part, from historical documents. The Koryu of ancient Japan however (or the ones that are still extant anyway) represent a constant unbroken transmition from living teacher to student - hands on as it were - for 400 - 600 years. There are very few societies on the face of the globe that could boast such a “direct source” in terms of history than that. This is why they became a major center of study for hoplologists like Draeger and Armstrong. K.

I'd guess to substantiate your school as a "koryu." Why is that so important? Koryu are a cultural assets of Japan. They represent an unbroken transmition from teacher to student of a Martial tradition - some of which are best part of 600 years old. As to why that's imortant, well I guess it only really matters if you are into that sort of thing. There is an expression in Japanese called "Keiko Shokon" - which best translated means - Reflecting deeply on the past to illuminate the present. K.

Thanks for your reply maiswey. To me it sounds like you teach a decent lesson in your group. You say you have americanised it? Can I ask what the foundation style is? As for me, I’m a long standing student and instructor in Wado-ryu Karate. The lesson structure within our group hasn’t really changed from that introduced into Europe by Tatsuo Suzuki sensei who was my instructor’s teacher. Lessons are conducted in Japanese and English (but not to the extent that it is detrimental to the students understanding). My Instructor is British however our Group is affiliated to the European Wado-kai and The Japan Karate Federation Wado-kai. Essentially, the techniques and processes that we practice within the dojo of our group are exactly the same as those taught in dojo in Japan. I am also a Student in and lead a UK based study group in a Koryu of ancient Japan. We practice Sword and Jujutsu and although my instructor lives in Japan he is actually Irish. Again, lessons are conducted in Japanese (in fact it is often archaic Japanese), but primarily the spoken word is English. It’s funny because often, when people (who have a background in gendai arts) first train with our group (or any other Koryu for that matter), they are surprised by the lack of formality – compared to that of a modern Karate club. The Koryu I am a member of is best part of 400 years old, and yet the instructors are simply referred to as Sensei (or by their first names). You work to your limits within training sessions but there is little or no regimentation to the class – it’s a lot more relaxed. The drill sergeant approach to Karate with it high flying Shogu entitled instructors and ridiculous ceremonies there to promote a false sense of importance are a modern (often Western) invention. Folk often refer to the word Budo as if it were a dirty word. It’s an often misunderstood word but it’s not a bad word imo. Budo doesn’t mean you become a pansy overnight and it doesn’t mean that detach martial ability for self improvement. But it’s a big topic that probably deserves its own thread. K.

Maisweh, your stance about not needing to be associated with a larger group / governing body (Japanese or otherwise) is clear. You obviously feel you can develop better by going it alone and only you can know that. I would also agree about your comments "Shogu" gods with their smoke and mirrors; however you seem to want to dismiss every other legitimate connection that karate has with Japan – apart from the name “Karate” Can I ask, do you call what you do Karate? Do you train in Karate gi? Do you operate a Kyu / Dan System? Do you have solo and paired Kata? Having any or all of the above in no way reflects how good (or bad) your karate is so, what’s the point in having them, particularly if you want to isolate yourself from other Karate associations - and distance yourself from anything Japanese? I don’t ask this in a derogatory way I find it genuinely interesting. I have an acquaintance on another internet forum that started off life training Shotokan karate with a traditional group. He eventually formed his own group concentrating on conflict management and now teaches seminars around the country and has penned a number of books. He very rarely wears a karate suit these days and he does not call what he does karate. Interestingly enough though, his system is based around the pinan katas. Do you need to call what you do Karate? K.

If we are talking about the "Bunkai" demonstarted in the vid posted by the OP - as being a good "basic" example -I'd have to disagree. K.

Well, it's not directly combative maybe - but it's a step on the way there, if you don't understand what you are doing, before you know it, you are heading in the wrong direction! K.

What is the significance of the uniform? As far as Buddhism is concerned - that doesn't interest me. Budo on the other hand is pretty key. K. what is the signifance of it being koryu or being from japan? im saying when i "think" of karate or when most people think of it, thats what they think of. i also never said buddhism, i said pseudobuddihsm, where instructors want to be addressed as super grandmaster guru sensei and spew out feel good quotes from various sources and market it as some kind of japanese spirituality. I think perhaps that's more in America than anywhere else? K.

What is the significance of the uniform? As far as Buddhism is concerned - that doesn't interest me. Budo on the other hand is pretty key. K.

I really like the way it starts from the fence, I just think it's quite refreshing to see this sort of thing. I get the diversity of the guard form both a defence and offence point of view, but I don’t get the wrist grabs? It doesn't make sense from a self protection perspective, that an attacker would use both hands to grab both of your wrists - it really doesn't. No one with half a brain would take both their hands/arms out of commission that way. To be honest - I could understand that approach from a Kaisetsu perspective if it promoted good body mechanics but it didn't really do that either imo. As I said, the WT guy had a much better approach - probably because he wasn't trying to reverse engineer movements into kata that aren't really there in the first place. K.

You didn't, but globally, when the world thinks "Baseball", they think America. When the world thinks "Karate", they think Japan. K.

The WT guy's approach was far more realistic imo. K.

In regards to your football analogy, I don't think so. Look at how baseball and basketball have grown the way they have overseas. Lots of Dominican players come to baseball now, and more and more Japanese and Korean players. But they reason they come to the US to play it isn't because it is somehow more "genuine" here; its because there is more money to be made doing it here. I think the meat of the disagreements in this discussion stem from what some people would refer to as "genuine" or "authentic" due to the nationality of the teachers involved. I say if someone wants the truly Japanese or Korean experience in MA training, then they should probably attempt to train in said countries to attain it. Not that close to the real thing can't be found in the US, but it won't be exactly that way, in my opinion. Then I believe what stems from this is that those who feel they have received the genuine training may tend to look down their noses at those who don't have that lineage, or feel the others aren't learning the "real" thing. I don't think everyone sees it this way, but I do think this is out there. I think this is what causes most of the disagreement in perceptions. Baseball is also British (not American)! I have to dive in to a work meeting now but will respond later.

That looks like an excellent group PS1. I'd have loved to have trained with them. Sogo in this respect implies "comprehensive" as it teaches multiple disciplines. Good stuff, thanks for sharing. K.

It is not a status that is earned it is a matter of history. K.

I am not American, so I'm not too sure what is commonly fed to the American public Zen like or otherwise? My Point about it evolving was in connection with the approach to teaching martial arts. IMO, the joy of studying martial arts is in the variety of methods and pedagogies that have evolved over time throughout the world in order to transmit martial techniques. Some of these are very basic and some quite complex in their makeup. Many are also inextricably linked with the culture and period from which they have evolved. Look at the process of learning through Kata for example. This method of learning doesn't tend to fit in very well in today’s western paradigm - why would it? The notion of Shu, Ha, Ri (embracing the kata, diverging from the kata and discarding the kata) is an alien one - if you haven't been brought up in that type of culture or been taught to understand how it works. If the one thing you are after is learning how to fight as quickly and as efficiently as possible - Kata is not the best way to do it today. That’s my own personal feelings, but it doesn’t stop me from practicing Kata and it doesn’t make me any less the martial artists for doing so. As I mentioned in another thread a while back - the idea that you have to want to fight or indeed be able to fight well in order to qualify as a decent martial artist (or that a school has to teach good self defence skills to qualify as a good school) is both out dated, narrow minded and dangerous. But to each their own of course. K

I used the term "civilian" self defence in order to differentiate it from schools that primarily existed in order to transmit techniques designed to be used by professional soldiers / officers (ie Bushi / Samurai). I understand that the origins of many Karate styles may have come from a similar background and would agree that it was probably taught / transmitted to those of higher standing within society. Okinawa however had no standing armies during its history and therefore Karate did not evolve out of same need as the Koryu did. Many Koryu incorporate Ninjutsu (and counter ninjutsu) techniques in their densho (certainly Tenshin Shodan Katori Shinto ryu and Sosuishi-ryu have also), however I am not aware of any schools of "Ninjutsu" that are recognised as Koryu. Taijutsu of course is an umbrella term for Jujutsu. K.

Koryu is a term used to refer to the martial traditions / schools of mainland Japan that were in existence prior to the Meiji restoration. They originated from the warrior clans and continued up until the creation of the modern military in the late 1800's. Their raison detre was somewhat different to that of Okinawan karate which developed (primarily) as a system of civilian self defence. That said, I have heard it argued that some authorities in Japan recognise Goju ryu as a koryu although that is a little contentious. Most scholars refer to koryu as schools / sytstems originating from mainland Japan and as such karate schools do not make the list. K.

Perhaps we can discuss it in the Koryu / Nimpo thread I recently started: http://www.karateforums.com/classical-arts-of-feudal-japan-and-ninpo-ninjutsu-vt44937.html You just hit the nail on the head... martial arts has indeed "evolved" from fighting - and that's the whole point. K.

Sensei8, What are your thoughts on this? K.

Depends where you train of course. I deal with the real thing and both the core traditions that I practice are Japanese and although my instructors are not Japanese, their instructors are and I have trained with many in the past. You seem very defensive JusticeZero? Why are you so anti Japanese in this respect may I ask. No one here is Anti-American and we all agree that you can get great instructors outside of Japan, but why, when someone says there are also great Japanese instructors - you suggest we are "cultural tourists" like we have been brain washed? The expression “narrow minded” has been brought in to play quite a bit in this thread by folk suggesting that by desiring Japanese connections makes you so, but equally, doesn't a wholesale "snubbing" of Japanese connections make you just as narrow minded? The worlds a big place after all. K

Yagyu Shinkage-ryu is a Koryu - no doubt about it. It is primarily a sword school (and a fine one at that), but I do not believe they incorporate tonfa. Maybe it was something your group added in? K.

Very True about the Wado style and a few others. I dont believe that Kyokushin merged with anything other than shotokan and Goju however....so it kind of fits in as well...but not really.... It is well documented that as well as receiveing 4th dan in Judo Oyama sensei was Menkyo Kaiden in Daito-ryu. I think it would be fair to say then that these influenced the creation of Kyokushin. K.

As in Hatsumi Masaaki sensei from Bujinkan? Ok, why is that then may I ask? No, fighting is about kicking and punching. Martial arts has many more layers imo. And that's probably the nub of it - when it comes to what people want / expect out of their training. Traditional arts suit some people but not others. Some are into the history and cultural roots but some are not. Thats all fine by me K.