sojobo

What bit? "Shu-ha-ri", or the differing core principles between styles. If it is the latter, I am referring predominantly to the difference in style between Karate like Goju and Uechi compared to the Shuri-te styles. But I am also referring to the differing pedagogies of these styles. How do you successfully capture the essence of these (between the differing styles) without changing them to the point where the individuals styles way of functioning has been eroded.? sojobo

I may be misinterpreting what you are saying here, but it sounds like you think that the type of system I have described is neither complete nor comprehensive, and I don't think that is the case. Its just the paths and methodologies that are different. Hello, when I say comprehensive, from a sogo bujutsu perspective, it refers to the range of arts that are taught as part of the schools curriculum. Whilst some koryu practice specific disciplines only (ie just Kenjutsu), some schools are multi disciplined so as well as covering Kenjutsu, they will also include Iajutsu as well as Jujutsu etc. Some go even further and include techniques in things like bojutsu (staff fighting), naganatajutsu (glaive) and even hojojutsu (tying/arresting arts). The latter are sogo bujutsu or the comprehensive system I was referring to, and as I said the important thing that makes all these diciplines bind together as a specific schools way of doing them are the common principles that flow through them all. Sojobo

Interesting.... Imo the kick itself isn't that important (or not always in this particular case), it's the mechanics behind how you do the kick that is the key. As SeishanGirl says, typical Wado Sokuto (as practiced as Kihon in many clubs) is 3/4 maegeri rotating into side kick in the last 1/4. However you won't find this kick in any of the “traditional” Wado kata. My thought process therefore leads me to feel that, by practicing it, you can engender body mechanics that can do a whole lot more than just kick - I'm thinking more along the “Kuzushi” lines maybe???? Most Wadoka will tell you that that “hip feeling” when doing sokuto is a very familiar one. Sojobo

Hello, Senpai or sempai (both are grammatically correct however "Sempai" is phonetically correct), is more about relationship than rank. There is (or should be) a personal bond between you and your senpai and so therefore seniors from any other group are not your senpai. Sojobo

I think that generally speaking, the first technique you describe is "Yoko Keage" - "Yoko" = side (or beside), "Ke"=kick and "age" means upward. In such, it is not a thrusting kick - it is an upwards jab performed with the outside edge of the foot. Performed correctly, there is no risk of hyper extending the knee joint (or no more so than when performing a Maegeri for example). The second is a Kekomi. Again "Ke" =Kick and "Komi" means to thrust or push. Interesting you use the word "stomp", as sometimes the latter technique is referred to as "Fumikomi" which has come to represent the word "stomp" in ma like kendo etc. It comes from the word "Fumikomu" which means to step into or break into ie a very decisive and "penetrating" action. Sojobo

Montana offers sound advice here. The typical Wado-ryu sokuto geri (as practiced in most Wado clubs' Kihon) isn't (strictly speaking) a side kick and is not done the way others have describe here or the videos shown so far. It is a complex kick that you will struggle to get imo, simply by looking for answers on the internet. Where are you based and what Wado group do you belong to? Sojobo

Hi PS1, Iaido of course is developed out of Iaijutsu (or Battojutsu) as a tool for self improvement rather than martial function. I am inclined to agree with you that even from a martial perspective "Iai" practiced in isolation is fairly redundant in today’s world, but as I mentioned to Bushido_man - practiced as part of a larger system it will help engrain those common principles that make the ryu tick. Depends where you train. In my group fo example, even when learning the "omote" of the kata, training is re-inforced with practice done against a live opponent (usually the instructor) who puts you under pressure. Me neither. Sojobo

Perhaps this is the case. But, you can look down the road (since we are talking about a journey) of each, and see which gets you to where you want to be faster, i.e., being able to defend yourself effectively, or what have you. Now, that isn't to say that "I want my Martial Arts in a Happy Meal bag, ready to go right now, so I can have it and be done with it." That's not what I am saying. When it comes to discussions like this, the proponents of the "lifelong journey" often make cases of getting somewhere fast, and then not having a foundation to build on, or they think they've found it all, and have nothing left to search out. That just isn't the case. The case is that when training is efficient and focused, then by arriving at one place in the journey sooner, allows one to continue down other avenues sooner. I don't like to put it all into a time frame, but the fact that time matters is a point that really can't be argued. There are only so many hours in a day, and we can only do so much, and eventually, our time runs out. So, time is a factor, unfortunately. I have no problems with anyone who wants to delve into cultural ideals and historic bases of different MA disciplines. But I do think that the fact of the matter is that there are some disciplines that have changed and updated their training routines and regimines that do make their learning curve smaller, and therefore, may be a more efficient training method. I don't disagree with this at all - particularly if the rapid acquisition of effective sd skills is your main priority. I would say though that learning a complete system from the ground up is not an entire waste of time either, and there are often things in comprehensive systems that are somewhat hidden to the observer - or the person that just wants to use individual "techniques" as part of a broader repertoire of martial material - or not as the case in question. As I have mentioned before, in any Sogo Bujutsu worth its salts, there has to be a common theme that transmits through all of individual facets of the Ryu - a commonality of principles if you were. This is the DNA of a particular school - not necessarily the techniques it does. Granted, this is the bit that does take time (and a very good teacher) to bring to life, however -whether the time spent to acquire this fits in within an individual’s timetable is a choice for them. The Koryu group that I train with practice a style called Sosuishi-ryu Kumi Uchi Koshi no Mawari. I know, a bit of a mouthfull, but it actually refers to what I mention above. It is a comprehensive system: Kumi Uchi - means grappling (armed and unarmed) Koshi no Mawari (Literally around the hip) refers to the comprehensive study Sword, Kodachi and Tanto (dagger). The key however is the fact that the core principles learned in the Kumi Uchi also transmit through to the work with the sword - and vice versa. So even when I am doing Kenjutsu I am also improving my Jujutsu. Not for everyone I know - but also not useless. Sojobo

As I said, I believe you can do both - you just need to train hard and have a very good sensei. Sojobo

Hi Charlie, Yes you did thank you. What you seem to be describing is the process of "Shu-Ha-Ri". I am very familiar with this. If, as you say, Isshin ryu is a bringing together of various Karate styles – can I ask - how does it cope with the diverseness of core principles. For example Goju operates on a very different level than Shorin-ryu etc. Sojobo

I hate the thought of being equal - I think it is good to think outside of the box. Learning from the Journey is one thing - meandering is another. Sojobo.

Ah well!, Maybe I am a little further down the road (in my Model T), but to each their own. [edit] And as they say, its not the getting there that is the thing.... it's the journey. Sojobo

Hello, The reason for me asking is that I have read / heard it said (from more than one source) that Isshin-ryu is a "made up style". I struggle to grasp that tbh, as (by definition) ultimately all style are "made up" to some degree or another, but there seems to be a theme that it was effectively created for American Gi's posted in Okinawa - rather than a truly home grown ryu. I would value your thoughts and any references to resource you have on this matter. Sojobo

As well, you may start to like it when you begin to see the end results. It does take time though. Sojobo

I believe you can do both - you just need to train hard and have a very good sensei. Sojobo

Hello, I am currently researching Isshin ryu Karate-do and whilst Wikipedia states that it is an Okinawan karate - it doesn't seem to have been listed on "Wonder Okinawa" which is a government run website. http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/index.html Can anybody answer why? Sojobo

Hello, I came across this the other day so thought I'd post it here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcl81ldNODc Sojobo

I too enjoy Naihanchi. It is very deep and teaches you from the inside out. There is a definite connection to Chinese ma through it - especially with the "body on body" type approach it has. Sojobo

Hello, To qualify my posts, I was not trying to suggest that training from kneeling position was the most efficient method of training from a “modern day” self defense perspective. @ tallgeese - As a law enforcement officer your martial skills are on the front line 100% and I respect that and admire that of you. Therefore it is in your own interest to make sure that you practice most diligently what is going serve you best in this area - to keep yourself alive. My original response was to a post that suggested that techniques from kneeling position were of little use, followed by another that suggested that they existed in the main to reduce risk of injury when falling. There is validity in both statements; however there is also a singularity of mindset which suggests that unless an exercise manifests immediate results (from a self defense or sporting perspective) it is a useless one. Ultimately, if the end result of your training doesn't work for you, then your training as a whole is useless. From a koryu Jujutsu perspective however (and let’s remember that’s where all jujutsu came from), training from the knees was effective both from a sd perspective (at the time) and as a training methodology. It was/is a piece of training apparatus that helped the koryu become effective as whole – not the individual technique. Effectively, its the sum of the parts. Sojobo

Hello, I do not study BJJ so I would not know whether or not it would be of any benefit - in terms of getting better at BJJ. In my experience in Koryu Jujutsu however (which bear in mind is often very different in both its approach and also requirements compared to Gendai Jujutsu) - it is good at what it is designed to do. As I mentioned earlier; ime, idori helps isolate certain movements and restricts others - the end result being greater efficiency of movement. The theory is this "efficiency" of movement is then applied to stand up techniques - making them all the more effective. Sojobo

I had the feeling you were going to ask me this question. As much as I hate to say it, I simply do not know. I learned it under John Viol Shihan ( http://www.seishinkan.com/martial_members_area/john_viol_daishihan_menkyokaiden.htm ) during about a year and a half sogo bujitsu course he was hosting (the course was longer than a year and a half, that's just how long I participated). During that time, one of the many things we covered was "Yagyu Ryu Ju Jitsu and Kenjitsu". It was not until after i stopped training with him that I learned about the Shinkage/Shingan verbiage. You are not the first person to ask. It is odd to me that it was not stated during the course. But he simply never told us any more than "Yagyu Ryu." I believe his website has the means to contact him if you choose. He may be a very interesting person for you to get to know. Hello ps1, Thank you for the link. From what I can glean from the website, my guess would be that it is Yagyu Shingan ryu rather than Yagyu Shinkage ryu. Yagyu Shinkage ryu is primarily a sword school (coming from Shinkage ryu of course). This group seems to be far more "comprehensive" in terms of the disciplines taught - this bears out in the use of the work "Sogo bujutsu" which means comprehensive rather than focused on one particular skill set. You also mentioned that he referred to the Jujutsu being taught as Yagyu jujutsu I don't think they are a Koryu group. Instead they are a group that practices a wide range of various Koryu arts - if that makes sense. Sojobo

When I trained under a Yagu Ryu instructor, we learned many techniques from kneeling. But as you mentioned, it was a training tool and the movements were performed in isolation. Certainly, this is a useful method of training those techniques. The training I am referring to is truly randori beginning on the knees. From the knees, there are no throws. In essence, what usually happens is the two opponents go at each other like pit bulls until one pushes the other into guard or manages to step around him into side control. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKz9L0vzGLo This is a link to the stuff I'm talking about. These guys make it look much prettier than it is. Quite often, guys just use it to circumvent the guard position because they aren't good at passing. Also notice that it's just not a realistic position from which a fight (sport or otherwise) would start. Hello, When you say you trained with a "Yagu" instructor, do you mean an instructor in Yagyu Shingan-ryu or Yagyu Shinkage-ryu? Sojobo

Hello, I think this is more a happy coincidence. Traditionally, in many Koryu, the "Mokuroku" (or Catalogue) featured techniques done in both standing and kneeling positions. The reasoning behind this was purely functional - bearing in mind that "Seiza" was the common seated position of the time - and a fair amount of time was spent in it (particularly when indoors). If your repertoire didn't feature the ability to defend (and attack) from this position you had a problem - and you would be a sitting duck (literally). The fact that this practice also lent itself to learning "efficiency" as a byproduct - led it be kept on as part of the curriculum in many Gendai arts like Daito-ryu, Aikido and even some Karate styles like Wado-ryu. It is a very powerful training tool. Sojobo

Most Koryu jujutsu have "Idori" or practice from kneeling in their curriculum. It is excellent training for isolating the smaller movements and learning to do techniques efficiently rather than letting the larger muscle groups of the body take over and "forcing a technique through. Sojobo.

Being relatively new to this board, I should have pointed out that there is a thread already dedicated to training programmes that can be found here: http://www.karateforums.com/the-martial-artists-training-log-vt30246.html Also, I noticed you were a Karateka so thought it worth mentioning my "typical" home training relating to same. Different arts however will vary (in terms of the best requirements). Sojobo