Wa-No-Michi

Agreed, I am pretty sure it was Sakagami sensei who said once - The difference between Karate and dancing is intent. WNM

Good post Toptomcat. As far as why historically certain styles of karate have found themselves practicing kumite the way they do - most of it is down to PR. When Karate was first introduced to mainland Japan it had to stand up against already popular art forms like Judo and Kendo which, had at their heart "Shiai" or competitive bouts. To be successful, karate needed to follow the same lines. Point fighting was karates answer to this. Subsequently, the main Japanese groups - JKA, JKF etc. adopted this as their "Shiai" Kumite style. I think however it is important to bear in mind that a good dojo will differentiate between the two. In my group for example "Shiai" is looked at as an important conditioning tool, however we supplement this with a good amount of Dojo "Jiyu" kumite or free fighting. The two are quite separate in my eyes. WNM

Well done fella

And... What of Kata and the process of Shu-ha-ri? WNM

You should be able to get that through good ma training as well IMO and thats my point.

Well, my ma is about fighting, but it is alot more than that - I am pleased to say WNM

Hello and welcome to the forums. A others have said, don't be put of by your age and shape not so much a problem. Reference to the content of the school, private lessons and how they conduct their training/grading syllabus - contact the school and ask, as process varies greatly from assoc to assoc and school to school. I train with a group that is part of the JKF Wado-kai and as such our training encompasses pretty much the same traditional methods that Otsuka sensei and then later Suzuki sensei taught. It’s the three K's really: Kihon - Basic training - punches and blocks and kicks etc. Kata - Forms or sets of pre arrange movements against imaginary opponents. Kumite - Sparring/fighting - from pre arranged, semi free up to free sparring. Likely hood is, that the Wado group you are thinking joining will follow this model (if they are traditional Wado) If this is the case, your first lessons will almost certainly be very simple Kihon or Basics - I usually start beginners with upper blocks outer blocks lower blocks and lunge punches - that usually blows their mind for the first 4-5 lessons - but it will be down to the individual instructor. Additionally, some schools place more emphasis on Kata, whilst others might be nearly all fighting. If it’s a good Wado club there will be a balanced diet of all three. Speak to the sensei about your concerns before you start, take it easy, but most of all enjoy – then come back and tell us all about it. WNM

It depends on how you approach your art: as a "do" or as a "jutsu." Not everyone is in it for the "do." I personally feel if self defense is not a priority of your martial arts training, then what you're doing is not martial arts. By that point it's just exercise, interpretive dance, or whatever else you want to call it. I don't disagree actually, but I think there are quicker and sometimes easier ways to learn effective self protection than studying a traditional karate. As for the “Jutsu” vs “Do” thing, its been discussed at some length on here and other boards, but in a nutshell there is little or no difference. At the time when Karate was being accepted into the fold of Japanese MA, the "Do" suffix was deemed more "pc" than "Jutsu" which perhaps at the time seemed out-dated. Today (and in particular the west) the "Do" has come represent the "self improvement" side, whereas "Jutsu" has come to suggest the pure fighting techniques of the arts. In reality, whether you call what you do a "Do" or a Jutsu" a balance between martial technique/ability and self improvement (and not necessarily as a by product of the former) is what makes us martial artists, as opposed to simply fighters - IMO. WNM

If your primary focus is self defense, then you shoud focus primarily on self defense. I agree with Bushi that an instructors job should always have this as a priority, but its not the main reason. Self improvement is the main reason. WNM

In your line of work I am sure that is what it is all about. However - self protection isn't everyones primary reason for training in MA. WNM

I may be going over old ground here, but I don't see any reason to punish students - physically or otherwise - I don't think it is part of an instructors job. Quite frankly, students are there to learn and if they don't want to learn we ask them to leave. Karate Dojos are not Kindergartens or correctional boot camps. There are not enough dojo hours to teach Karate properly let alone having to waste time administering punishments. WNM

I didn't mean this to come across rude, and if I did, I apologize. Neither of us are going to agree with the other on Keage, so, for me, it was starting to become a "can't see the forest because of the trees" thing. I respect you as well as your posts and I've enjoyed them all! Brian is bushido_man96:) Ah, come on now sensei8 don't throw in the towel just yet, I really enjoy your input. BTW you never come across rude, you strike me as true gentleman – lets face it, there are not that many Japanophiles on this board – its you and me really bud. What does Bushi have to do with your web site? I am confused. WNM

LOL...oh boy. I'm at the point right now that I don't care a bent-pin what either of the words means, literally or figuratively! okay. Nope, almost, but it's [website] been placed on the back-burner for the moment. I'm not going to explain why, but, Brian's aware of some things, and these things for right now will remain private. Sorry! Who's Brian? WNM

Yes it does...in Shindokan it most certainly does! My Soke and my Dai-Soke both taught/teach Kekomi as a thrust and Keage as a snap...period! I believe that they knew/know what the true actual meaning of the two words are because they were both born and raised in Okinawa. Why is Kekomi a thrust and why is a Keage a snap in Shindokan? Soke wanted the understanding of either term to be simple enough for the laymen to understand and to NOT be bogged down with definitions of a word, but, to just execute the technique, because that's what's important. Snap?! Thrust?! Rise?! Great...now just kick! I am sure they know what the words have come to represent, but Keage does does not literally mean snap. Do you have your website up yet? WNM

Well on consistency I would agree, as long as you are doing it consistently correct. WNM

If you are referring to the Wado pinan Yondan I posted they are NOT front kicks - because they are not done to the front. Nothing to do with foot position, its to do with hips and the relationship to the target. The "mae" in maegeri litterally means "in front" as oppossed to "Yoko" in yokogeri which means beside. This is all the more obvious when you consider the embusen of the kata at this stage. WNM

Hello, Keage does not mean snap, but I think it has become synonymous with a snapping side kick, just as Kekomi has come to stand for thrust side kick - particularly in Shotokan I had always seen keage as an upwards kick (snapping as well if you like) making contact with the top outside edge of the foot - when done to the side. I agree a sharp kick rather than a push, but the key fact is that it is delivered into the target pushing up (like an uppercut). One application might be to the underside of the chin or arm for example. I am not a Shotoka, but as I understand it in Heian Yondan the yoko-geris are keages rather than kekomis - as demonstrated here at 0:35 by Kanazawa sensei. Also note the foot of his supporting leg remains more or less forward, certainly doesn't appear to point away or at least not to 180 degrees. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AambQc8F0ZU Glad you're enjoying it, actually there is much to learn in terms of different ways to do a front kick, and as you will have read, groups classify the terminology in a variety of ways. Ultimately though, as long as you are doing any kick appropriately - and more importantly doing what your instructor is teaching - then this is the nub of things. Whether it is right or not is another matter. WNM

Well maybe you have learnt something new. Not all side kicks are the thrusting type. WNM

You didn't, sensei8 did. WNM

Hello, In direct translation, Keage does not mean snap kick. Ke = Kick age= rise Keage=rising kick. Just a stomping kick? WNM

In my experience in Japanese Karate, techniques are described using both direction or area in which techniques are to be done as well as method. For example Jodan (upper) age (rising) uke (block), is a head block, but so is Jodan (upper) soto (outer) uke (block), but they are different techniques done in the same area. In answer to your question - for maegeri, the most typical foot position is ball of foot toes up (josokutei)- if you asked someone in my group to just do a maegeri they would probably do it to this way. If you asked them to do a side kick they would probably assume you mean for them to use Sokuto or edge off foot. If however you asked for a Yokogeri Josokutei they would perform a kick to the side using the ball off foot and toes up. The most important point being that in the yoko geri the kick comes fom your side (in line with your hips) rather than turning your hips into the direction of the kick prior to using your leg. The latter is a maegeri (front kick) but the former is a side kick. WNM

That surprises me. Most of my students (kids included) understand. They understand that yoko geri is a "category" of kick - to the side rather than finite description as to how it is done. As a shoto-ka you would probably perform a yoko keagi here. By definition, this is a side rising kick. Almost same bio mechanics but not quite. Always best to explore all options. This is where good instructors are worth their weight. WNM

I agree, at the end of the day, good instructors have a variety of ways to communicate. The most important thing is to learn from how they move. You strive to emulate them, but the Yoko geri thing goes a little further. If for example they verbally communicate it as maegeri, but (as shown in the pinan Yondan clip) demonstrate it is a yoko geri, then there is a risk that students will miss the detail and reasoning behind why it is a yoko geri - in the first place. As I understand it, in this case, its all about not changing the position of the hips from the preceding technique. They remain side on (to the opponent (shomen in terms of the the embusen)) because you have just done a chudan barai to the side (not turning hips into the technique but away from it to deflect it), then countering with a kick. After the block, you do not turn your hips toward your attacker before letting rip with the kick - as that would be too slow. Therefore to some it is a maegeri, but to the better informed it is a yoko geri. Some will therefore perform the kata more correctly than others. WNM

Well, I guess at the end of the day, if he/she has enough depth of knowledge the made up stuff should be sound. As far as kicks to the side (in Maegeri foot position) they are not making it up, it is a Yoko geri. In this JKF Video of Pinan Yondan you will see that the kick at 0:27 is labelled as Yoko geri. It is defined as such because of its directionality, rather than foot position. WNM

Thats probably why they are your Shihans?