kansascityshuffle

Shinta, under what association/tournaments are you competing bare knuckle? I myself have competed in Kyokushin and Sabaki tournaments under the knockdown kumite rules but I notice you're a Shotokan stylist. I'm not aware of any Shotokan organizations having any bareknuckle competition since the late 30s/early 40s. Just curious is all, because I'm aware of Goju having something similar to knockdown rules/Kudo(Daido Juku). My original Shito sensei would have me and a few others train and spar bareknuckle which was good and bad. Bad for USANKF tournaments because we were going way too full force but good for real life. It took me a long time to figure out that I could get an ippon instead of a waza ari for doing a controlled punch to my opponent instead of actually getting on top of him and actually punching him after I swept him. Nice to see this video posted again You should look into the original "Budo" video if you have never seen it.

in most martial arts competiions Kicking is more points than punching, takes more skill i guess, oh yea and i give you props man, sorry but i havnt heard of a kickboxer who actually uses more kicks than just the boring roundhouse and frontkick, and rthen to land them like that, i think thats awesome, props again man! Really? haha, I'm trying not to laugh thinking of how many kickboxers I know personally and huge ones that do more than just the roundhouse and front kick. I've seen a sliding side kick used many times, it's almost like a front kick used by San shou guys alllllllllll the time and a similar kick was used by Benny 'the jet' urquidez. Bill superfoot wallace wasn't called superfoot for nothing. Don "the dragon" wilson had a plethora of kicks and he trained under Wallace, so, go figure. Savateurs use many different types of kicks not seen in most kicking oriented arts. People with a Kyokushin background have used many flashy kicks in competition that go beyond the front and roundhouse kick. Kickboxing...at professional level is about making money, and someone that wants longevity in the "sport" wants to have some showmanship. I advise you watch more professional cards. -please take not i wasnt trying to insult at all, sorry if i did yea thats what i was talking about, i meant kickboxing in the UFCMMA WEC, etc. i watch alot of that, and i know the guys probably do know more kicks than just the roundhouse and front kick, but its just that whe theyre in action i usually never see anything like a spin kicki, back kick, i have seen side kick probably, but thsat can also be rare, but i wasnt trying to insult, infact i think its otally awesome to see a kickboxer who actually uses mor variety of kicks, lol im sorry but im a fan of spin kick knockouts, thats why, anyhoo congrats on you win though. You're talking about MMA, not Kickboxing. There is a huge difference and until the last few years MMA has been lacking some good strikers and if you want to talk about "good Kickboxer" like stylists in MMA just look at Anderson Silva and GSP. If you want to watch kickboxing and stuff similar to it, watch WMC sanctioned fights, K-1, Ichigeki, Kakutogi, Shootboxing, K-U, and even Kyokushin, Enshin, Ashihara, Shidokan(which is the "triathalon"), Kudo and more kinds of fights. The latter that I mentioned are styles that have full contact competition where you might see some of the types of knockouts you're desiring.

Good choice with Chinto BTW. Blimmin hard though isn't it?Yes, I have been working on it for around 15 years and find myself still finding things I do wrong with it. The pattern itself isn't so hard, it's the transitions of the stances, for me, anyway. There are a lot of really neat Kata, but for me, Chinto is what I keep going back to. I can't help to "roll my eyes" when somebody tells me they're really good at learning Kata and can learn them quick. Sure, anybody can be taught the pattern, how to run through it, but they can't really perform the Kata after only a week of being taught it. This is what Karate is to me, anyway.

Hi moriniuk and welcome to the forum. This is a very interesting question and one that I have had pondered over before. In a nutshell, I don’t think that is about how certain katas can best represent certain styles, but more to do with how each of the Katas are performed and how this varies from style to style. A Wado “Wanshu” contains very similar moves to its Shotokan counterpart and the “embusen” is roughly the same, but the way it is performed (fluidity of movement etc.) is different, as is the purpose in some cases. That said, it is clear that some styles place a higher status of importance on certain katas over others; the core katas of their system as it were. The “Shitei” (compulsory) kata list as recognised by the WKF is as follows: Goju Ryu – Seipai and Saifa Shotokan – Jion and Kunku-Dai Shito Ryu – Seinchin and Bassai – Dai Wado Ryu – Seishan and Chinto To be honest, I don’t know what is behind the reasoning for these choices. From a Wado perspective you could argue that Seishan and Chinto are the two most senior and therefore most important / representative Katas of the style. So does the same logic apply to the other styles? I don’t know. On the other hand the WKF Shitei list has probably been designed around competition performance and what looks the prettiest. I can understand why Sanchin would be considered by most Goju practitioners as fundamental and Wado’s Otsuka went on record many times to say that Naihanchi was a very important kata. – Problem is though from a WKF / performance perspective, they ain’t too exiting. It’s a tricky one, but I am going to stick my neck out and say Chinto as it is light, fast and contains many of the key Wado principles. I'm not a Wado practitioner but Chinto is one of my favorite and the kata I have the most experience with. My roots are Shito and Goju and for Goju it's easy, Sanchin but I could also respect Tensho and think the two go "hand in hand". For Shito I can't pick just one kata and I think for Shito this would be specific to one's "ha" or even what Kata their Sensei has emphasized. My sensei had me practice Chinto over and over but I saw him have others focus more so on Kanku/Kosokun Dai or Bassai Dai. He also had me focus a lot on Unsu and Paiku. I also have experience in other Shito dojo and can remember one dojo focusing primarily on the Pinan(they didn't do Heian)and Kosokun Dai(which we all know is basically the entire Pinan/Heian). In all honesty I have mixed feelings about the WKF but I can't argue the skill level of the top competitors. The WKF and it's sister associations are the "cream of the crop" when it comes to point karate but it's very hard to unify and label a style. Just look at what has happened to a lot of the Korean styles because of such efforts.

I've never liked how Chuck fights, never have but he made it work for him for a while. I always told people not to emulate the way he fought. However, this is besides the point, you only have so many years as a fighter in the "more full contact" kinds of competition. Be it: boxing, kickboxing, thaiboxing, knockdown karate, MMA, Kudo, etc. There comes a time when one should "hang up their gloves" and focus on training/teaching. I haven't yet trained with Chuck nor sparred with him but I have with other fighters from "The Pit" and I'll just say this, Chuck isn't the only one with a wide open guard that throws looping punches.

I do believe Kuk Sool is the closest thing to that though. As far as I know, it was founded in 1956 by In Hyuk Suh who studied the martial art of the royal palace, the martial art of the Korean Buddist temple, tribal martial arts, accupuncture, and gymnastics. They're all supposed to be Korean forms that have been used throughout the history of the Korean penninsula before the Japanese takeover. Yeaaaahh, but.....you would be hard pressed to find any Korean style that does not claim this. TKD is one of them as well. When I hear this kind of information on the "origins of the Korean styles" I take it with a grain of salt. TKD, TSD, Hapkido and Hawarang Do try to make these kinds of claims. Don't even get me started on Gumdo...

Yes, they can but it takes some time. My advice, from my own experience would be to "forget" your Karate as much as you can while you start out in Muay Thai. Once you start to get your Muay Thai down than can you start to combine the two together. Karate has helped me tremendously in Muay Thai, especially with guys that have only trained in Muay Thai. I recommend "forgetting" your Karate or more or less trying not to do it while in Muay Thai because a lot of the footwork is different, not having your hands up will get you punched a lot. At least my first 3 months of Muay Thai had me taking a lot of punches to the face because I had my hands a lot lower in more of a "karate guard". I feel that Karate has helped me out a lot in terms of muay thai and kickboxing competition. I know a lot of people that came from TKD backgrounds into Muay Thai who also are having success using both arts together. However, once you go to "full contact", be it Muay Thai or knockdown kumite rules, it's very hard to go back to point sparring, in fact, near impossible to do it successfully. Don't get me wrong, I can point spar, but if I was to compete in a AAU/USANKF/WKF/JKA rules Karate tournament I would not do well at all. I wouldn't get hurt, I might get DQ'd for doing a technique that's not legal, for punching someone in the face, kneeing etc. When I used to compete in knockdown rules I would have to quit doing muay thai/kickboxing type of sparring for at least a month just to acclimate to not punching in the face and no "full circle" clinching(not allowed under any knockdown rules kumite). I'd like to hear of anybody that has successfully gone back and forth between point sparring and muay thai competition, because I have yet to meet that person.

Yes...but without good kihon, you can't have good Karate. Think of kihon as your base. This is why I will roll my eyes when I see someone on TV that is doing a "kata" where they will do a 720 kick, flip around but can't do a front stance right to save their life.

When you answered the original post, I thought to myself that that's how I felt, myself. I noticed you have Jocky Gym Muay Thai in your MA background, which I'm not familiar with. I also saw in your posting Ft. Bragg, and your profile says the military. I read an article in the NY Times about how all branches of the military have had boxing as a tradition, but now MMA is coming in. The article focused on the army. Jockeygym is a famous camp that used to exist in Thailand but no longer does. It's known for making orthadox fighters fight in southpaw to confuse opponents. In the Army, we have modern army combatives which kind of has a MMA focus but I'd say more BJJ but also focuses on using other techniques against a opponent that has a knife, rifle, etc. It goes up to level 4 with 4 being the highest. For some people depending on their job it's required training and for others it's optional but everyone in the Army gets at least a small taste of it in basic/"boot camp" and possibly in their AIT(job training). Crosstraining is very bad for a beginner if they're doing something like Karate and boxing...TKD and Muay Thai, and so on. However, if the instructor is teaching them both arts at the same time it can be done. Muangsurin camp in Thailand and some other Thai thaiboxing camps taught TKD and Muay Thai together(i.e. Master Toddy and Master Sken). If someone does something like boxing and wrestling or muay thai and bjj, it won't effect them as a beginner. If you were to do kempo, karate, tkd and than train muay thai at some other school and don't have any roots you're only doing yourself harm. I came into Muay Thai, myself when I was already a shodan in shito and goju and temporarily "forgot" my karate as much as I could so I could learn the muay thai. I also trained in Muay thai for 3-5 hours 5-6 days a week for the first year and had two fights within my first year so I was somewhat committed more so than the person that trains 3 hours a week. Once I felt I was catching onto muay thai did I start to intergrate or combine my karate with it. I did this all my jr. year of highschool, too..and I'm 29 now. I know I'm getting off the topic here...but once I was able to integrate muay thai and my more "classical" karate was I given a crash course in knockdown karate and literally given a shodan in a knockdown style of karate to fight in Enshin and kyokushin tournaments. It was very easy to make that transition for me coming from point fighting karate to muay thai and than to knockdown kumite. Real karate as I like to call it, is very similar to all styles of Karate, it's just how it's emphasized is what seperates it and makes it a different ryu/kai/kan. Have fun in your training. someone just gave you a black belt???... I over simplified..I trained with someone for a few months that won a Sabaki tournament a few years prior against a Japanese Enshin champion, and as far as I know is the only person to ever beat this person in any Sabaki tournament. I trained with this person to get ready for my knockdown karate debut who is a black belt in quite a few styles and instructor ranked in muay thai at a high level. After a few months of this training he presented me with a black belt in a style of knockdown karate but I was I myself already had a fairly decent background in shito and goju and had a few muay thai fights under my belt which I won. I was also outsparring him in knockdown kumite and was "expected" to win so a lot of pressure was put on me. This isn't that uncommon of a practice, if you ask around, for someone with a background in a style that switches to another style they will be granted rank or their rank is recognized. Especially if they have something to bring to the table, meaning, can they win and represent that style well in competition? I'm not going to point out names of styles and people I know first hand that have done this but it does happen. I also know of certain martial art company owners that are just given belt certificates for providing free uniforms, etc. I know this thread has spread away from it's original purpose and I'm sorry but just wanting to clarify.

The few years I spent training in Aikido helped me tremendously with ukemi and how I "cut angles" with my footwork. However, where I have trained and other dojo I have checked out did a lot of compliant training, meaning that there was hardly any resistance applied. I don't think Aikido by itself is a good art. You look at some of the old high ranking people that study it and they had backgrounds in Daito ryu, Judo, jujutsu, and so on, first. I ended up quitting Aikido because my instructor couldn't defend against a mawashi geri and show his counter(he was teaching the class and using me as his uke)after he asked me to do the mawashi geri. He than made a lame excuse that I caught him off guard because I didn't throw a lead leg mawashi geri acting like that was the norm so I threw the lead leg and he still couldn't do anything. I'm by no means saying you'll have the same type of experience as I have, because I even tried to find more realistic Aikido dojo for a good 3-4 years after this incidence but the area I lived in at the time didn't have anything of that nature. A general rule for Aikido is, expect it to take 3-5 times longer than something like Karate to be able to apply it. You'll notice karateka that train for only 3-6 months that will be able to apply a "simple" gyaku tsuki and mae geri better than you'll be able to ten kan and kote gaeishi to ni kyo or whatever.

I agree, when I was only doing shito and goju the "uppercut" kind of punch that was taught was ridiculous compared to a boxing style uppercut punch. If you can throw a decent uppercut you'd be surprised how many thaiboxers you'll catch off guard trying to uppercut your way out of their clinch because it's not something taught that often in muay thai.

When I was a bouncer I used a ridge hand in defense to the side of someone's neck which knocked him out. It has a lot of power, but it depends on how you're delivering it. I've trained at some schools that throw it like a little quick snappy motion and at others that throw it more like a hook punch that follows through. I honestly get more power on my ridge hand than I do with my hook punches. The side of the neck is also a very good target to aim kicks for too, instead of for the head even though the temples are a very good target(have seen flashes of white from being struck there a few times myself). Like I said, it depends on how you're delivering your ridge hand

in most martial arts competiions Kicking is more points than punching, takes more skill i guess, oh yea and i give you props man, sorry but i havnt heard of a kickboxer who actually uses more kicks than just the boring roundhouse and frontkick, and rthen to land them like that, i think thats awesome, props again man! Really? haha, I'm trying not to laugh thinking of how many kickboxers I know personally and huge ones that do more than just the roundhouse and front kick. I've seen a sliding side kick used many times, it's almost like a front kick used by San shou guys alllllllllll the time and a similar kick was used by Benny 'the jet' urquidez. Bill superfoot wallace wasn't called superfoot for nothing. Don "the dragon" wilson had a plethora of kicks and he trained under Wallace, so, go figure. Savateurs use many different types of kicks not seen in most kicking oriented arts. People with a Kyokushin background have used many flashy kicks in competition that go beyond the front and roundhouse kick. Kickboxing...at professional level is about making money, and someone that wants longevity in the "sport" wants to have some showmanship. I advise you watch more professional cards.

When you answered the original post, I thought to myself that that's how I felt, myself. I noticed you have Jocky Gym Muay Thai in your MA background, which I'm not familiar with. I also saw in your posting Ft. Bragg, and your profile says the military. I read an article in the NY Times about how all branches of the military have had boxing as a tradition, but now MMA is coming in. The article focused on the army. Jockeygym is a famous camp that used to exist in Thailand but no longer does. It's known for making orthadox fighters fight in southpaw to confuse opponents. In the Army, we have modern army combatives which kind of has a MMA focus but I'd say more BJJ but also focuses on using other techniques against a opponent that has a knife, rifle, etc. It goes up to level 4 with 4 being the highest. For some people depending on their job it's required training and for others it's optional but everyone in the Army gets at least a small taste of it in basic/"boot camp" and possibly in their AIT(job training). Crosstraining is very bad for a beginner if they're doing something like Karate and boxing...TKD and Muay Thai, and so on. However, if the instructor is teaching them both arts at the same time it can be done. Muangsurin camp in Thailand and some other Thai thaiboxing camps taught TKD and Muay Thai together(i.e. Master Toddy and Master Sken). If someone does something like boxing and wrestling or muay thai and bjj, it won't effect them as a beginner. If you were to do kempo, karate, tkd and than train muay thai at some other school and don't have any roots you're only doing yourself harm. I came into Muay Thai, myself when I was already a shodan in shito and goju and temporarily "forgot" my karate as much as I could so I could learn the muay thai. I also trained in Muay thai for 3-5 hours 5-6 days a week for the first year and had two fights within my first year so I was somewhat committed more so than the person that trains 3 hours a week. Once I felt I was catching onto muay thai did I start to intergrate or combine my karate with it. I did this all my jr. year of highschool, too..and I'm 29 now. I know I'm getting off the topic here...but once I was able to integrate muay thai and my more "classical" karate was I given a crash course in knockdown karate and literally given a shodan in a knockdown style of karate to fight in Enshin and kyokushin tournaments. It was very easy to make that transition for me coming from point fighting karate to muay thai and than to knockdown kumite. Real karate as I like to call it, is very similar to all styles of Karate, it's just how it's emphasized is what seperates it and makes it a different ryu/kai/kan. Have fun in your training.

I have experience in goju and shito obtaining black belts in both arts and in all honesty a lot of the ways that you're practicing your kihon won't work in continuous more full contact kumite. However, some of it may as long as you use some common sense on your timing and distance with those techniques. Am I telling you to quit? No, I'm not because you may be having a great time, getting a great work out and so on. I personally love shito and goju ryu for the kata.

I've been doing Muay Thai since '96 and startedteaching at about 6-7 months into it(assisting my first Kru). I'm a natural southpaw but had to "learn" orthadox ways so holding pads and teaching orthadox would be easier. I have been able to captalize on being a southpaw, especially at landing the inside leg kick with my rear left leg. Since I teach orthadox it has helped me be more effective at kicking with my lead right leg without switching, and something I emphasize to my students. Relying on switching kicks is a crutch. If you can kick without switching your kicks your kicks will only be that much quicker. I think you just have to get comfortable man..the more you spar and get over the awkwardness or whatever you want to call it, it shouldn't matter if you're a southpaw or orthadox. Since you have boxing experience you can always rely on the old keeping your lead foot outside of their lead foot game...

I saw a very good boxer a few years back KO a very good muay thai guy(was this boxers first time doing a muay thai fight). Was against Danny Boy Bennet who KO'd JR palmer in the super brawls in the late 90s. I forgot the boxer's name but he uppercutted his way out of Danny boy's clinching and won. So yes, the uppercut can be used very effectively in the clinch. Good advice/info.

Best ultra secret martial art technique: Train under a good instructor that teaches it. 2nd best ultra secret martial art technique: get some roots, get at least the equivalent of a 1st dan in something before cross training. If you don't want to take my advice, you won't progress much, no lie.

No reason to do a 360...the majority power is lost beyond 180, if that, even. Granted, if your opponent backs away you may accidentally do a 360, nobody is perfect but be careful and try to follow up with something immediately.

1. Relax, get used to getting hit without getting upset 2. Try to find more oppurtunities to spar, practice makes perfect. 3. Breathe

I respect my rank, what it means to me, anyhow..the hours spent bleeding and sweating and having some bones broken to get my rank. However, the whole worn belt thing looks cool, I suppose..like a comfortable pair of old worn jeans. If you ever have the means and train in Japan in some dojo they will think you're kind of silly having a kuro obi that is almost all white. Especially if you follow the "tradition" of never washing your belt...that's going to smell a lot after 5-10+ years. At the same time I have witnessed a legit Yodan/4th Dan take a brand new tokaido belt and scrape at it with a sharp katana right behind his dojo on a summer day. He was a little embarassed I happen to find him doing this but I'll never forget it. Here's an interesting read if you have never read it: http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/09/09/urban-legends-of-karate-belts/ Remember, if you train in an art that has a kyu/dan system or has more or less copied the Japanese kyu/dan system...it comes from Japan. However, some funny "traditions" have spread outside of Japan in more western countries that aren't "traditions" in Japan, go figure. The bottom line is, the proof is in the puddin'. Meaning, if you got the skills, that's what counts, not how your uniform or belt looks.

Like any martial art, there are good Shotokan and bad Shotokan dojo, the same goes with Goju. Goju kai means a "more Japanesized"(more or less) Goju than Okinawan. Whereas most goju is "more Okinawan". You might even get a taste of knockdown style sparring(iru kumi) in the goju kai, it just depends on their ties to N. Gosei Yamaguchi which they should have. As a beginner it doesn't really matter if something is "Japanese" or "Okinawan". Often, many Americanized styles claim to be Okinawan and aren't even close to even being Japanese style(different thread sometime, I guess). I'd probably go with the goju kai if I was to choose between the two but check 'em out to see what you like the most...most importantly, have fun and train hard. Ossu

You train in isshin ryu, right? I have only known of one Isshin ryu person to ever compete in knockdown(kyokushin)rules tournaments and do well, and that was over 20 years ago. Isshin ryu is known for point fighting, go figure. Anyhow, no kata is beneath a black belt. You can always work on your kihon. Unfortunately, in open tournaments some of the judges are looking for "flash" and not proper form so you will not win doing a kata taught to beginners. You can, however win if your form is good enough in a tournament with judges that know what to judge on. I would rather see somebody do a pinan/heian/kihon with good form than do something like Paiku, Unsu, Pasai with poor form. Quality over quantity.