joesteph

I took a look at that suit, Ed, and I think it was developed because this class is going to make Mixed Martial Arts look tame. I take it you've got guts!

It looks like you hit the nail on the head, here, Tiger. It wasn't as though they had different days; they taught together every class. They were also husband and wife. They complemented one another: e.g., when coordinating activities in our large class, he was very good; when working individually with students, she was aces. But I feel their personalities--viewpoints?--were different when it came to individual initiative. Sometimes we hear of or have heard of an instructor who does not want his or her students studying another art--not even some facets of that art. Sometimes we learn of an instructor who has no problem, so long as the other art doesn't interfere with their classes/instruction.

When practicing punches in hyungs, my instructor's teacher introduced me to what she referred to as a "bow and arrow" effect. When about to perform a punch, I raise the non-punching arm up to the middle or high point that I intend to throw the punch to, then fire off the punch with the non-punching arm retracted--to the hip. It does have the feel of putting my body into the strike, but without an exaggeration; I know my shoulders and hips are brought into play but, again, there's no exaggeration--and no loss of balance. My instructor added to it by referring to starting off in "relaxation" and then firing away with "tension." Again, that's in the hyungs, but the "feel" is there that it's a stronger punch. In an intro to boxing video I watched on Expert Village, the presenter didn't do as I am doing in the hyungs, of course, but his torso movement seemed to me to have a twist that reminded me of the bow and arrow; his hands were, as expected, where boxers always place them, up high, and they looked like good shots against the focus mitts to me.

Looking back, Heidi, I wish I had been told why this instructor didn't want me going ahead/self-studying, or that I had asked him. You take the time to make yourself clear.

It is an interesting article, Doug, and reflects your observations. Personally, I've never been fond of getting hit in the head, and as Tallgeese said: I believe you can both protect the head and body as well as punch effectively from that hands-up position. Incidentally, I saw that the article's photos were not only vintage, but that they came from an old 8mm film, not snapshots. Not the usual source.

This question of "self study" can be asked of instructors and students who know their instructors well. When I took Tae Kwon Do, there were two instructors, husband and wife. It was a large dojang, and the class was rather large. After the warm-ups and the opening exercises (such as we all do the lunge punch, then the front kick, etc. as a class), and before we did non-contact sparring, there were the hyungs to be learned and practiced for each belt level. I had purchased the book of the hyungs from the husband. I learned rather quickly from the first few classes that the hyungs in the book were easy to follow; not that I could learn them as well without an instructor, but that I could study/teach myself the next few moves, then do them with either an instructor or a student of higher rank in the dojang. I spent a fair amount of time on the exercises (usually punching and kicking) at home, then on the hyungs, reviewing the old and learning the next few moves. We moved along rather slowly; it was just a few new moves per class. When the wife would call us up in a group by belt rank, she'd have us move through the hyungs as far as we should know. She was fine when I'd do the next few moves; he was not a happy camper. I would still receive hyung instruction from a higher belt, and both instructors would check on my progress, but it was evident that I was progressing faster than someone who had no self-study, who didn't go ahead. I believe the wife had no problem because she knew I was applying myself, and it made the job of teaching me new hyung moves easier; there was something to fine-tune rather than start from scratch. At one point, though, the husband took me aside and told me not to go ahead any longer; he told me just to do what was done in class, and wait to be taught the new moves. I don't know if he realized that I understood that knowing hyungs wouldn't give me a faster promotion in rank, but I was genuinely disheartened and didn't continue there. Instructors: Do you approve or disapprove of students "going ahead" in the form of self-study in your art in your own schools? Non-instructors: Have you just gone ahead with self-study in your art? If so, did your instructor know? Approve/disapprove?

Well, somebody got back on the martial arts bandwagon. Talk about a boost in the energy level, Chickara!

I can agree with you that sparring isn't the same as real world, Doug, but I wouldn't go so far as to say very little. When I started doing sparring as safe as non-contact, I was alerted as to how my fighting skills had declined. Doing non-contact has been far better for me in terms of even the basic watching out for incoming and firing away with precision. I have to agree with you there. We practice self-defense techniques under controlled situations, but we don't apply them in a tournament; what we do in a tournament (a controlled battleground?) limits not only where we strike but even the manner of striking (such as not to use a spear hand).

It works well for both for me, Zanshin. You must have me confused with someone else. I don't know Kyokushin and haven't commented on it.

When I took Tae Kwon Do years ago, it was non-contact every sparring session except for one time, and that was when students from a Kung Fu school visited. That one time, we wore gear and sparred moderate contact. I'd been sparring on my own with a friend whose background was Isshinryu and contact was first without sparring gear. I'd learned from him one of the simplest self-defense concerns, that your wrist can be grabbed when your hands are up in fighting position, and then you get it in the face or body. I ran into a problem sparring non-contact, and that was due to the position of the hands of whoever my sparring partner was. Very often, their hands were low, and sometimes they were way out in front, the latter as though defining their space, keeping you away. When I had a sparring partner whose hands were way out, I did what I'd practiced with my friend; I grabbed the forward arm by the wrist and gave him a (non-contact) shot. When we sparred again, his hands were far forward again, and I again grabbed the forward one, pulled him forward, and "struck" again. That's when one of the instructors spoke with me. In non-contact, the seizing of the wrist is considered contact. He didn't suggest an alternate, such as to slap the hand away, and he explained that if this is permitted, non-contact would become contact by way of pulling and likely pushing. (Although he didn't say it, non-contact was what people had signed up for.) I apologized to my instructor and my sparring partner, but I realized that there was a false sense of security that any student whose hands were placed like my sparring partner's possessed; it didn't even occur to them that where they placed their hands for self-defense could be turned against them. As I said in my original posting in this thread, since doing some cardio-kickboxing, I now place my hands up close where my face is. Contact or non-contact, they're in the best position for me to defend myself.

Your posting fits into what I found out from my instructor last night, Josh, as a good amount of time was spent on reviewing old joint locks and learning the new ones that we have to know for our upcoming test. Starting point? The wrist grab. I thought I had one of the new joint locks right, since the last time I worked on it with partners, my wrist was free and I had a firm hold on my opponent in joint lock position. There are two strikes that come afterwards, meaning the joint lock is a means to an end. When I did the joint lock with a different partner yesterday, with my instructor supervising us, I applied the lock and was immediately told to let go by my instructor. She then worked with me separately. I found out that I wasn't supposed to apply as much twist or "lock" into this joint lock as I was doing, even though it would be a stronger one. I was shown the way the lock was to be applied, different from other locks to break or wrench your opponent's wrist before strikes; this new one is supposed to be a control technique, a hold in the form of a lock. I immediately saw how to counter it, and was respectful in asking about this, demonstrating slowly that an elbow bend ended control; she agreed and then countered my counter, and started to show me how it can then become a takedown. The purpose of knowing this move as a control at the lower belt level is so that it can be a jumping point to learning counters later on. We worked on the joint lock in the approved manner, with the strikes being the greater focus of dealing with the opponent. If using this in a self-defense situation as taught, you'd have to strike quickly after the joint lock, but that might be said to be expected. Is it that with this particular joint lock, it's safer to stop the lower belts at this point, as a hold? I have a friend with a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do, and when I spoke with her about it, I found that she had no joint locks in her training at all. I understand the reasoning, and I think that the wrist grab-turned joint lock counter that sets your attacker up for the follow-up shots has its merits, but if I were to use that joint lock in a real-life situation, I'd go full-blast.

I see two points here, Tori. As I interpret the "bullet responders," they don't know what they are talking about because they haven't experienced it, and it is very likely that they have never taken a martial art based on their own fears (such as not being able to do it, or do it well, or even that they'll be hurt in the dojang), and even mundane procrastination. By presenting an overwhelming situation (the bullet), they justify themselves. And I believe you're right that such an attitude permeates their lives regarding other things never attempted. ("Why bother? What's the use . . .") An interesting group, the bullet responders, in that they utilize the straw man argument. They misrepresent what you say/do (in this case, that martial arts makes you invincible, which you never maintained), then knock it down (the bullet) with a comment that the misrepresentation (the straw man) could never hold up against. You did make a third point, Tori, about your love of the martial arts. Such people do not understand because they do not want to understand; they do not want to feel they are missing out on anything. It's good that you do have that love.

I remember when Power Rangers first came out, DWx, and then Halloween came along. Kids not only wanted to dress up as Power Rangers, they wanted to act out the roles, too. Schools that had Halloween dress-up days encountered enough problems to prompt them to announce, the following year, that Halloween dress-up day would be held again, but no Power Rangers. So here I've described a situation that adults discovered needed to be addressed for the safety of the children, while the video presents an MMA forum created by adults so that kids can wail the tar out of one another with their parents' approval.

I remember having a discussion some time ago about the high or rising block, that it's really force-against-force, and the taller height of an attacker would just pass right over it. Then it came up about being grabbed by the shoulder from behind, that you could be pulled 'round and get it in the face. The proposed answer was to duck your head while using a "high" block. If you're bent over, it doesn't look high at all, but if you pause during practice and straighten up, you see you're doing a rising or high block motion. We tried it, and were surprised at how well the duck-and-high block worked. We then worked on what the follow-up would be, but never did we think of the ridge hand strike to the groin, rising up with it with the non-blocking hand. It makes sense, too, since you've ducked and you've got him paused standing upright at your block, that you can spin around and slam him in the groin. It's using the power of the biceps, and it's like an uppercut movement.

In Soo Bahk Do, the usual starting point in hyungs and punching exercises is at the sides, between the ribs and the hip, at what I call just touching the top of the belt. The fists are palms up, and the punch is a complete turn to palms down. I remember when I took Tae Kwon Do years ago, the instructors had us with our fists resting on the belt, the palms facing inward, and then the punch would go out to full turn/palms down. I've found the Soo Bahk Do starting point to be more comfortable than the Tae Kwon Do one I learned years ago. I also have a greater tendency to start the punch correctly; by that I mean that I would sometimes, in Tae Kwon Do, have my palms down in the start position, so that when I punched I didn't actually turn them, they were already in the "finish" position at "start." If you're talking sparring, Northern Dragon, the other students in my class tend to have their hands either in a "forward" boxing stance, which I used to do, or even in a "low" position, which I never did. From a few cardio-kickboxing classes, and now the cardio-kickboxing DVD I use, I keep my hands up right by my face and fire off from there for sparring--or even punching BOB.

I remember this about Lee, that he would be on automatic in assessing his surroundings (say in a seated position while having a meal) and determining what he would do if attacked (in the chair or booth he was having the meal in), or if an attacker presented himself (his defense being an offensive move). This didn't mean he was paranoid; it meant he was aware, alert. Am I paranoid because when I'm on line, say at the local McDonald's, and my children are in their favorite booth, that I like that booth, that it's easy for me to turn my head and spot them, keeping an eye on them--or perhaps keeping an eye out for them? Parents today will usually say no. The same goes for adults, and the one who thinks "How can I get up from this seat to defend myself?" "What would I do if the guy at the corner I'm approaching tries to get behind me?" etc. is more likely to send out a don't-even-try-it signal, and be ready for action if the need arises.

There was a fellow student who was doing this, Tori, a really nice guy who understood the principle of "strike through the target" for true impact/damage, but who would fire off a punch to the side of your head or a kick to the side of your body. I was doing a self-defense exercise with him, the usual that the punch would come straight to my face and I'm to block and follow up. Picture a man stepping forward, looking forward, and punching at an angle; he punched right where I moved to instead of throwing the punch to where my face "used to be," as I had moved out of the way. It was a moderate bare-knuckled shot that got me on the jaw (I'm so glad it wasn't my nose), and he was very sorry, but I said to him that he's practiced this so much, he's doing it automatically. I wasn't even mad, said it was a good shot, and he did as he was supposed to do for the drill from then on: punch/kick at me, not "outer" space.

As someone who studies in a non-contact dojang, I have to admit that this concern is genuine. We have testing coming up for promotion, either at the end of September or the beginning of October, and my instructor is concerned with getting us ready after the summer months. We've regularly done light--to me, it's just "touch"--contact with self-defense techniques, just not to the face. Last night, when we were being checked by our instructor, all the light contact we've been doing had to be ended, and I realized that when the regional judge comes for our testing, we have to conform--strictly--to the organization's rules. I noticed the difference immediately, that I was now practicing in such a manner that everything was falling short--be it punch or kick--of the opponent. I really do think that you will act in a real situation as you have trained, and now dojang training will include greater practice in a restricted manner. I'm glad I train at home with strikes against two training bags, a WaveMaster and a BOB, which I will admit is not the same as against a human opponent, but I feel this training is helpful to me, a necessary supplement.

It's funny (I hope that's the right word) that you said this just now, tallgeese, because I got corrected yesterday when practicing joint locks, that I have to watch that I don't break my partner's wrist. I'm afraid I did warrant the warning. We were reviewing joint locks, and my instructor was standing right next to us when I shot forward to break a wrist grab and do the lock; my partner bent over to one side and I'm glad I stopped--a bit surprised--when I did. It's been a while since doing the "old" locks, and so I guess that the proper safeguard limit wasn't in my mind. I had to review the "old" cautions with my instructor before we went on to practice what was new.

When you answered the original post, I thought to myself that that's how I felt, myself. I noticed you have Jocky Gym Muay Thai in your MA background, which I'm not familiar with. I also saw in your posting Ft. Bragg, and your profile says the military. I read an article in the NY Times about how all branches of the military have had boxing as a tradition, but now MMA is coming in. The article focused on the army.

I was thinking the same thing, DWx. I had a photo of my boys made into a 16" X 20" that I had framed. They're in their do boks in the dojang, with a WaveMaster behind them. I love it. Toptomcat, you don't have to have something that large made, but you might either use a photo you have, or take a number of shots and choose what you'd like a photo shop to handle, to make a really nice "personal touch" (as DWx said) impact on your club's poster.

In a defense technique we study, there's a finish-off side kick that has to use the front leg, because you're so close to the opponent. I look at the position and think to myself that a front kick could do the job, but the reasoning is that a side kick with a good thrust can do more damage.

This observation makes me think of all the cardio-kickboxing classes and DVDs that people attend/use. I attended a few cardio-kickboxing classes locally, but the hour-long sessions were too draining on me. A half-hour would have been plenty for me, and the reason I took them was to supplement my MA training. I purchased a DVD that contains several ten-minute workouts, targeting different areas of the body. I can fit them into my schedule much more easily, and can also replay the same one more than one time (such as the "core" workout for the midsection) to concentrate on a specific area. I like having this as a supplement to my training; it's healthy exercise.

Hi, Dan. Welcome to Karate Forums!

Tiny, I'm 5'6" and weigh 170. My size? 4. This is far too large; I don't understand why you were given anything that large in the first place. Size 2? Sounds much better.