joesteph

That was fun! Great find, DWx!

This is why I like using the terms "proficient" and "proficiency." The martial arts are subjective to an extent, and when the strong term "master" is used, it can more open to disagreement. I believe that greater agreement can be reached in referring to someone as proficient in takedowns, joint-locks, sparring, forms, etc., than in referring to someone having mastered a technique. For me to receive a promotion to green belt, I have to prove in testing that I've achieved not a degree of mastery, but a degree of proficiency, in different areas expected of a green belt. I don't believe it's semantics; I believe there's more "wiggle room" when "proficiency" is used instead of "mastery."

Enjoyable. And "Guru" Steve Rowe has a gentle way about him doesn't he?

I realize that much discussion has been about the black belt rank, but we recognize that there are many levels and lots of hard work going into getting there. In Soo Bahk Do, there are ten levels below first dan, and each of them has requirements that must be met--each with a "bottom line"--before moving up to the next level. There are amounts of time in-between tests, and though we've discussed double-promotions in other postings, most students move up one step at a time, having put in their time training and then proving themselves worthy of promotion at testing time. With all due respect to black belt, IMO, proficiency at each of the levels below it is really the primary focus, and having self-defense capabilities, as well as improving those capabilities, at these lower levels, are worthy goals. In my own art, there are two levels of white belt, two of orange, three of green, and three of red. A belt color change can be a reasonable short-term goal--or long-term considering time, especially during the adult years.

Class with my boys - tumbling - obstacle course - concentration on three kicks: front, roundhouse, side - defense against a stranger

Home Leg stretches Front swing kicks Kicking exercises lying on floor: - roundhouse and side kicks WaveMaster, different types: - front kicks - crescent kicks (w/ bag paddle) - roundhouses - side kicks - back kicks Class with my sons - punches and kicks against target shield - self-defense techniques - Ki Cho Hyung Sam Bu - Pyung Ahn Cho Dan with me after class, before adult class assembled Home after the boys went to sleep Ki Cho Hyungs (Il, E, Sam Bu) Pyung Ahn Cho Dan Chil Sung E Ro Hyung Pyung Ahn E Dan

Reviewed Pyung Ahn Cho Dan with the boys ____________________________________ Leg stretches Front swing kicks Kicking exercises lying on floor: - roundhouse and side kicks Pyung Ahn E Dan

In another thread, FitOrDie, "effective" and "efficient" were brought up as terms to consider. A technique or chain of techniques may be effective, but are they efficient? From the postings referring to these terms, and your reference, above, if straightforward, nothing fancy, nothing from a movie, techniques are used, and these are done quickly so that they are efficient, and effective enough (e.g., a palmheel to the lead adversary's nose) to enable you the precious seconds you need to get out of there, you're right on the money.

Barring having the ideal, I'd say 70% fitness, 30% skills. Not only would I enjoy MA, I'd enjoy quality of life, in that fitness is related to health, and your health can mean everything.

Would immediate counters be palm heels and backfists? Or good old-fashioned shoving, if he seems caught off-guard by the unorthodox blocking?

The examples links you gave, BB of C, all took place in tournaments or professional bouts. Looking back over the thread, the concern has been in real-life situations. No referees, no rules, no large area to maneuver about. Of course, no one expects you to produce footage of an actual street fight; in our postings we explain what we've encountered "on the street," as Jeet Kune Do and 50inches have related. You've expresed that you can make a hook punch flashy, but I'd simply call it well-executed. I wouldn't call a punch flashy, any more than I would call a front kick flashy. When you refer to multiple strikes performed rapidly against an adversary, I envision them all as straighforward, that none are fancy/flashy. No 360 degrees jumping and spinning kicks, etc., as might be in a demo, a tournament, or a bout. You believe that techniques you are proficient with, which others call flashy, are viable in a real-life situtation. I believe that it may be so for you, but not for the majority. There is a point at which we are dealing with techniques that are the "art" in martial arts, beyond what the average man or woman needs to execute well to defend him- or herself in a real-life situation.

Where is it in the shoulder, Tallgeese? In an earlier posting (Thursday?), you mentioned the biceps tendon. Is it where the biceps meets the deltoids?

Leg stretches Front swing kicks Kicking exercises lying on floor: - roundhouse and side kicks Sparring exercises; Self-defense techniques Ki Cho Hyungs (Il, E, Sam Bu) Pyung Ahn Cho Dan Chil Sung E Ro Hyung Pyung Ahn E Dan--first half* Due to a death in her family, others will be substituting for my teacher in the upcoming week. I studied the video of the next moves after the halfway mark, trying them carefully, hoping to make them easier to know when she returns. Testing is scheduled for Friday, February 6.

Hi Joel! A belated welcome to KarateForums from me as well! nrspook . . . Hmmm . . . In the Navy Reserves, but in the espionage (oops! not "PC"!) intelligence division, therefore a "spook"?

From your postings in the other thread and the references you made above, Ironsifu, it's easily seen that the workouts are intense, and the amount of time devoted is substantial. I also see you equating students with fighters, or fighters-in-training. Are you speaking of students who can devote full time to these workouts, not having the responsibilities that we encounter in society, from school (including homework), a job, and social obligations ranging from family responsibilities to holidays? If so, these are unique students who can prioritize martial arts training in order to avoid, as you referred to in your OP, "never get[ting] beyond average." If you are speaking of students who are to fulfill those responsibilities I've mentioned above at the same time, then that's another situation, more of a reflection of the lives we lead.

If someone were bothering you on the street, Tiger, I think anyone would understand that you felt threatened. It may be that you tried to walk away, or it may be that you had to stay where you were (waiting for a train, a bus), but if he approached you, "talking trash" as the officer who is my Sensei put it, you were in a self-defense situation. The three feet referred to is actually estimated by you and, frankly, it really isn't so far away. I don't believe you have to give the number, or even say personal space, but you can tell the police officer(s) that he began to move in, you definitely felt threatened by him (what he was saying, how he was moving his hands, even that he was getting in your face), and you acted to protect yourself. The police are pretty sharp; they'll catch on quickly as to who was the aggressor here.

The chances are that you, male or female, are likely to be up against a larger adversary, or more than one. In my case, I am also concerned about the age of my attacker(s), who are likely to be younger, stronger, faster than a fifty-seven year old. I'm not helpless. I'm not going to be a victim. If a shot to the jugular notch using a spear hand (possibly while holding in place the attacker's hand, a hand that grabbed me, say by the shirt), pressing it and having his body yield to the pressure, will allow me to escape, I'm going to use it. If a four-finger joint strike to the throat will stun him (possibly preventing him from grabbing my shirt*), allowing me to escape, again, I'm going to use it. If there should be more than one attacker, the very surprise of his buddy suddenly choking, unable to bark orders at him, may stop him in his tracks while I escape. If it doesn't stop his cohort, at least I have the opportunity to deal with one attacker at a time, not two at once. The size of your attacker, the number of your attackers, the age of the defender--these are all factors that weigh in both morally as well as legally when fending off an attack and effecting an escape. _____ *Just today in self-defense jujitsu class, my very first class, Sensei (who is a police officer) identified three feet as the closest you'd let such an individual come up to you. He can talk trash all he wants from that point or beyond, but once within, he's within attacking range--as in attacking you. Stop him as soon as he crosses that line (or, as has been brought up by JohnC, I thought of it as the "trigger point").

Class to be taken each Saturday Self-defense JuJitsu techniques against: - two kinds of pushes (ag. body, head) - two encircling grabs (one that you are grabbed, the other that you intercept) Home Leg stretches Front swing kicks Kicking exercises lying on floor: - roundhouse and side kicks Ki Cho Hyungs (Il, E, Sam Bu) Pyung Ahn Cho Dan Chil Sung E Ro Hyung Pyung Ahn E Dan--first half

I believe you did use martial arts in the street fight, JKD. They may not have been fancy, but you used fighting techniques that proved themselves. I'd say that there is a point beyond which it isn't so much as that the application of the fighting technique is likely to be called on, but that the "art" in martial arts has been reached. The basic techniques seem to have worked well for you, 50inches. My instructor, and her own teacher, have told us at the dojang more than one time that the flashy techniques are for tournaments. I'd say they're even for fun, as I've watched middle and high schoolers knock themselves out (as in working hard, not being unconscious ) to do spinning kicks, jumping ones, what-have-you. In the self-defense JuJitsu class (my first) that I had today, Sensei gave me the words I wanted to hear--and to which he had us train accordingly--that what he was teaching wasn't "pretty," it was the bottom line.

I found it, 50inches, and it's interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njPgVLPTWZk

Do you see each student as a "fighter," Ironsifu? It's a word that, IMO, implies combat at full contact and, I'd say, on a regular basis. Many students (half the enrollment in American MA schools?) are children, whose parents are looking for a combination of protection against the bully (and stranger) and instilling values (or virtues) such as respect and self-discipline. Others, in their teenage or adult years, are likely at first only concerned with self-defense, although beyond that often develops an appreciation of the "art" in martial arts. I wouldn't say it's that anyone I've referred to doesn't know how to train, as I've quoted, above. Do you actually mean that they are not being trained properly? If we can separate the question of how many times a technique should be performed from the taking of techniques from a form, then I agree that not only should techniques (which are not "hidden" but are contained within the form) be brought out for practice, but there can be greater appreciation of forms by doing this. This is actually how I feel, myself. It's a time factor as well as an emphasis concern. It may reflect American culture, but I think of a reference to a "diminishing return." In other words, there's actually a certain point you reach in which, if you continue at that pace, you begin to worsen as you go along; you can get sloppy, even dread starting because you'll have to do what may seem endless. You not only need variety to keep the mind fresh but, working with other "aspects," see the overall picture. If I keep working on my left jab, and I don't want to make it into a drudge, then I've got to switch to working on my right cross, too, and next I connect them, not only physically but mentally as well. I must admit that I have not attended seminars, although I did take a special course, "Street Survival," which remains with me years later, and I just began a self-defense JuJitsu program to supplement my karate studies. My teacher attends a special annual US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan event every summer in San Diego, with days of seminars presented. We seem to have a discussion not about techniques themselves, but the instructing of those techniques, and how those who instruct are, or maintain themselves as, the creme de la creme.

I don't see this as much of an issue in these forums, Ironsifu. I think we're all on the same page with your first quoted sentence; the only caveat with the second is that it may not necessarily be true that your opponent doesn't have a chance, but can we agree that you'll either defeat him, escape from him, or go down taking a piece of him with you? Since you advocate this, Ironsifu, and it does sound very basic, have you employed it with your students and found it to be successful in their martial arts growth, say over the course of a year or two? Do you include forms, which incorporate many movements, with this training?

I take it that the spear hand shot to the solar plexus only works against out-of-shape muggers, the more "jelly belly" the better! Home Leg stretches Front swing kicks Kicking exercises lying on floor: - roundhouse and side kicks Ki Cho Hyungs (Il, E, Sam Bu) Pyung Ahn Cho Dan Chil Sung E Ro Hyung Pyung Ahn E Dan--first half Class tonight with my instructor's teacher - Sparring exercises, both required and combos - Concentration on non-basic hyungs - Bunkai of lapel seize and kick within segment of Pyung Ahn Cho Dan explained - Tutored after class to work on first half of Pyung Ahn E Dan - Discussed "my" bunkai in same segment of Pyung Ahn Cho Dan regarding lapel grab, one that I again see related to a Taiji move, but also another move in "American Jiu Jitsu" by Len Lanius, pp. 11-12, "Cross Arm Break." Both moves I see involve crossing your own arms first, then applying a kick (Taiji) or an arm break (Lanius).* *I feel as though I'm "cross-training."

So what did you find out of this movement, Joe? When I first had it shown to me, Brian, I did the "bow and arrow" power motion that I realized could be to have one hand pull in or control the opponent, while stepping up and shooting the other hand, a "vertical" spear hand, forward to the solar plexus. But the completion resembled a Taiji move to me, one that I'd done with a fist, in which, applied to this Soo Bahk Do form, you have a redirecting, sweeping hand move to a certain point and instantly strike over that sweeping hand with the spear hand. Then I realized that the point reached would be better considered a midway point, to redirect further, opening up the solar plexus while stepping forward and striking--"ramming"--with the spear hand. My teacher let me know that what I said were interpretations that she was fine with. Should I pass the green belt (6th gup) test in February, she's spoken of creating a green belt class. Then we might be freer in sharing bunkai.

Class for me tonight - Sparring combinations - Pyung Ahn Cho Dan demonstrated by me, found acceptable - Started Pyung Ahn E Dan; found opening moves familiar from the past, so shown further - Remained after class for tutoring, first by Jo Kyo Nim (assistant instructor), then Kyo Sa Nim (chief instructor) and I discussed bunkai* I felt I'd found in first half of form *Downward redirect of incoming midsection punch, then spear hand to opponent's solar plexus