tallgeese

You do give up a huge advantage, unless you are really good on the ground. It's important to train there because even a high school level wrestler has a good shot a putting you down if you don't train to stay up. It a range that fights happen in. And if we want to train to fight, we have to at least have a rudimentary understanding of the game. Out of curiosity, where are you getting the tactics from that you're using on the ground?

I've gotten the opportunity to train with JKD versed individuals both during time in grad school and more recently in a couple of semi-privates. I've been very impressed with both experiences. As as very non-traditional art, JKD practitioners tend to stress certain aspects of the fight that most suits them, or the particular branch that they come out of stresses. This leads to a wide variance in practitioners and how they work a problem. As with all things, there are strengths and weakness to any set of movements, for JKD practitioners, this will always depend on their flavor of the art. And in most cases, the people in the art are very open minded and will seek out ways to minimize those weaknesses by studying arts that fill those voids. The big, over-arching theme of all of them that I've seen however, goes to methodology. They are all looking to improve training patterns and methods and rely less on "how it's been" to more on how can we make it better, or more live. That focus, above any tactics, is what makes the art formidable. I've squared away a week long training camp in the art this month to expand on what I've been exposed to. I'll let you know more when I become more well versed.

And what happens when these need to go in a different order? Or the attack doesn't match? Or an angle is wrong? Then the hours and hours of neurological conditioning is for naught or at the very least not as effective as it could have been. Fights are free form. Training needs to match that need or we're not maximizing our prep time. To do this, we need to look at more modern modalities that are based on current understanding of adult learning and combat psychology. Like I've argued before, if the goal of your training is to preserve an art form in the manner it was performed at the time of it's modern systematization, then there are very good reasons for kata, and it then has a built in purpose. If your purpose is to prepare for real world combat then, personally, I think there isn't as much "what's it for" factor.

And from: In my earlier days of my journey, I was an aggressive blockhead, especially when I competed. I got my rear end handed to me nearly every time. Once I gained some humbleness, I started to become more passive and eventually became a passive blockhead. As a passive blockhead, whether in street defense kumite / partner drills or in competition kumite, I got my rear end handed to me nearly every time. (Blockhead = me not learning to change my ways and getting my rear end handed to me.) Since then, I've learned that in a street defense situation, a normal, humble joe shmoe MA like most folks and myself need to maintain a certain amount of passivity and mental calmness to a certain point. Once a situation on the street changes from verbal to physical, at that precise moment, a mental switch must flip and "HIYAAAAH!" You must be aggressive enough from that point forward to defend yourself and / or your loved ones, regardless of number of attackers. Multiple opponents means you must change your tactics from how you would take on one opponent (and must include trying to be a track star...run away!). tallgeese, remember that joe shmoe MAs don't have the benefit of military or LOE training. Military and LOE's like you are trained to be soldiers, and that you're trained from the start to be aggressive because of the situations that you will most likely be in (which I think is some of the wisdom you're trying to share). Because we don't deal with intense situations like military or LOEs on a normal basis, and because we don't have the badge of law supporting us, joe shmoes like us will have a different encounter experience and must contend with an attacker on the street a little differently. I understand that LOEs would say, that besides basic routine traffic stops, every serious encounter is unique (I have 4 students that are LOEs), but, if you would, humor me for a few For instance, if some street thug decided to get brody with me at a parking lot or whatever somewhere and threatened to close in on my or my loved one's personal space (but has not yet crossed it), I have two basic options. 1) I can remain calm and passive and move my loved one and I out of danger while informing said brody street thug that "we don't want trouble / leave us alone." Or, 2) I can flip my "HIYAAAAH" switch and go aggressive in an attempt to preempt this theoretical brody street thug. As a joe shmoe, if I choose option 2, brody street thug is not going to react the same way if you, as an LOE, would choose option 2. It's psychological: people react differently to uniformed and badged law officers than to joe shmoes (else, why would there be undercover officers?). If you choose option 2, said brody street thug knows you're armed, have access to backup, etc... He knows his options are to run (and get splatter-tackled and arrested), to attack you with fists (and get splatter-tackled and arrested), or attack you with weapon (and get maced, tasered, or shot; in case of mace or taser, followed by splatter-tackled and arrested). Because brody street thug already has a plan of aggression in mind (even if only random / spontaneous), if I choose option 2, I will most likely get my rear end handed to me or killed. However, if I choose option 1, and thus prepare for impending danger by putting myself and loved one in better position, when brody street thug crosses that line of personal space, SURPRISE! "HIYAAAH!" switch flipped, counter-aggression on, supported by my MA training. If weapons are involved, brody's wrists, elbows, and knees are subject to breakage, and his throat and groin are subject to smashing... Takedowns work in any case, but if brody has buddies with him, there's no time to turn a takedown into a tap-out. A takedown must take brody out in order to move on to his buddies. Preemptive, on-all-the-time aggression works in sport competition / MMA because contenders are in a controlled environment with rules and no fear or expectation of death (reasonably, that is; i.e, when was the last time someone was killed in an MMA bout?). In sport competition / MMA, people do train to win, and superior aggression almost ensures victory. However, in street defense, there is no winning, only survival. To quote: Self-preservation = survival... Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to disparage you and your training methods, or the wisdom you are trying to impart. From your posts I've read around here, sounds like you're intensely well trained and experienced. I plan on researching the court case you mentioned in a previous post on this thread. While I've never won championships at competitions / tournaments, I've successfully defended myself and loved ones in street situations. And, I'm definitely no master, either. One of my personal improvement projects in my MA training is I think I've gone too far back towards being a passive blockhead. So, I'm training to be more aggressive in my defense responses... Oops... Sorry my 2 cents ballooned into a novel again... I get long-winded sometimes I don't really disagree with your points. I'm not talking about the tactics of when to or not to engage. My point of aggression is better (mostly) is based on once things start. What goes on before is a study all its own with its own considerations. Nor am I talking about aggression once the conflict starts in terms of a blind, blockheaded rage. It's a calculated, forward pressing, skilled response driven by a mindset to bring overwhelming violence to bear on a situation until its solved. Once your assaulted by a bad guy I don't think it matters much if you're a cop or not, its winning that matters. Keeping him on the defensive instead of you is, in my experience, the best way to ensure that happens.

8/29 Few rounds of MT for MMA. Drilled escaping from bottom, strikes included. Use of cage. 15 min no gi, gloves no strikes.

8/28 Drilled triangle from mount variants. 30 min free roll.

Welcome aboard!

Welcome to KF!

8/26 Drilled maintaining mount via moving to modified mount then rear mount from a roll to face down position. Ended with arm bar from modified mount. Used in live drill. 30 min free roll. 5 min no gi

8/24 Drilled over Rickson Gracie material from earlier this year with a friend. 8/25 1.25 mile run Chest/Bis Abs

I think anyone would agree that martial activities are both physical and mental with one relying totally on the other for effectual response. As to the efficiency of Kung Fu and Chin na on the ground it's really a question of specialization. Both arts are excellent arts. I've been around, and trained with Chin na joint manipulation specialists, and it's really good joint manipulation. My understanding is that most of the training in this is on the feet ( a grappling range to be sure) but much less time in application from a negative position on the ground. Now we look at any of the arts (not just BJJ) that specilize in ground combat. These are arts that focus almost entirely on what happens once you hit the ground. Sure, we do stand up and takedown work (much less in BJJ across the board if we're honest than wrestling or Judo) but most hours of training are on the mat already. It's not really a question of technique (although I think history has born out that technique is an important factor in a styles effectiveness as well), but a question of math. Where does an art spend most of it's time working? If a BJJ student learns a triangle and puts 100 hours of training in over a few months, and trains the triangle for 80 hours of that time you produce a product. Now, you take a KF student and show him the same tactic. Now he trains the same 100 hours, except he works on stand up, drills specific to KF training, ect for 80 hours and spends just 20 on the triangle. Who will will in a grappling match where you can use the triangle. The obvious answer in the guy who drilled it 5 times as much as the other. This is not a cut on Kung Fu or any other system. Just a statement that arts that specialize in one aspect of combat will turn out practitioners who are, as a whole, better at that aspect. They will be less versed in others, but they will own that aspect. You teach grappling. Great. It's important to shore up your art's holes (and we all have them). However, are you really teaching Kung Fu, or importing tactics from other arts to do this? Chances are, if you're rolling like BJJers you've imported the methodology and tactics. AND THAT IS FINE! It's how we grow arts. It's what I did prior to having the chance to train BJJ all the time. But that does not really mean that Kung Fu (or the core art I started in, or ANY art) answers all problems. As to never getting taken down. Maybe individuals are that good, but I think that it sets individuals up for failure to no prepare for a range of combat and then IF they do end up there they are more at a disadvantage if it does happen. Think about the psychology of conflict. If I train with the attitude "I'll never get taken down" what happens when I trip. Or, very realistically, a good wrestler puts me down? Now not only do I not have tactics to deal with the fight, but psychologically, I'm still reeling from the loss of dominance. I'm less likely to prevail. Just some thoughts from a guy who came out of a really great art with limited grappling who once thought very much the same, and discovered differently.

I've been encourage since early in my martial career to look for those things that can be effectively added to my overall arsenal. It's been very beneficial. It let me check out boxing and later kickboxing and MT for different striking strategies and training methodologies. After seeing the advent of grappling in the UFC, we realized that we needed to address this facet of combat, so many of us started training is some form of grappling art. As to authority, I'm out of a small enough splinter organization that it's pretty open to change. It's the sort of thing that's a constant thing when you look at my history and really that of the whole organization. Right now I've come to really see the depth of FMA's and the elegance of their weapons work. It's something that can add a lot I feel to what we currently have as part of the art. Especially with the methods of training they use.

8/23 Drilled the weeks material for guillotine work. 45 min free roll.

8/22 MMA night. Drilled open floor dirty boxing. Maintaining control in clinch against the cage to takedown. Escaping from bottom with strikes.

8/21 Drilled guillotine from standing, from side mount, and 10 finger guillotine. 25 min free roll.

8/17 Warm ups of no hands triangle drills. Arm bars from guard. And bridge and shrimps from under side. Reviewed recompoisng the guard tactics from the week. 4, 3 min rounds of free roll with rounds of one hand under belt and then eyes closed. 20 min free roll. 1, 5 min round of mitt work. 1, 5 min round of no gi with strikes.

8/16 40 min free roll 30 min sparring (yeah, another nite of stand up. this is out of hand)

8/15 Drilled positional rolling with strikes. From partner on back, partner mounted, and partner in guard.

8/14 Drilled recomposing guard from side. From half guard to full guard. 35 min free roll. 3 min rounds MT sparring until I wished I was dead.

8/12 Drilled recovering guard from bottom side. Roll up to arm bar. Finished with kimura out of reverse triangle position.

That's a great article, DWx! Very nice find. Considering that I do law enforcement, and the tactical side of it on top of that, I'd have to fall largely into the jutsu approach. Getting clean hits in critical areas at speed while under stress is far more important to me than driving tacks one on top of the other. A good example of this is a drill I found (and promptly stole-story of my martial career) where the high center mass area of a target is actually removed, leaving just an open space about a half of a sheet of paper (a tad more maybe) right in the kill box. Now, when doing CQB work the goal is to NOT see holes on the paper. This keeps individual from worrying too much about making holes touch and lets them drive fundamentals quicker and quicker into a good hit area. This drill really started letting out team get more good hits off on target far quicker. However, as with all things one can't get away from technique. The grip has to be solid, the press clean, and sights alined (even if you're not actively focusing on them), to make those hits. As with most things, a good jutsu approach comes from do like repetition of fundamentalists. Where the jutsu focus becomes different, from my experience, is when you move behind a precision rifle platform (sniper/observer work). Once you're back here, it shifts more to the "do" mindset due to separation from the target. Not to mention the waiting. And the more waiting. It become hugely more mental. Not that CQB isn't. It is different in it's focus though. Mental work up close is all about controlling the bodies response to immediate conflict and working problems at speed without becoming hindered by the in your face distractions. Mental work at a distance is about precision movements, supreme focus over long periods,and finally the ability to break a shot when the mind and body are both ready to go. And it has to be when it's time to go- a factor not dictated by the shooter, just to make it harder. So, there is some overlap. However, I largely agree with what the author is saying.

I don't think it matters and is up to the culture of the school. Granted, it's part of most common Asian arts so of course it belongs. There are more modernized schools I've trained in where it really didn't fit. So, no problem there either. It really boils down to the culture of the individual club.

Those nights work out great. It's always a bonus when you show up and get one on one treatment. As to the normal rate, both BJJ schools I've been at have been $80 per hour. I've trained with others that are higher, usually for very well known individuals. Prior to that, I'd never even been in a martial arts school where privates were offered.

Welcome to KF!

8/10 45 min free roll. The crazy traveling that's been rampant in my life the last week and a half have made working out difficult at best and outright impossible most of the time. But finally, I get some mat time.