sensei8

Great points Zaine. How many laypersons will judge an instructor by how many trophies adorn their school? As well as how many laypersons will judge an instructor and/or a student by one tournament loss, no matter the division?

If I'm correct, the form GM In Ho Lee was doing is only for the GM, who's the only one in the ATA with that rank, 9th Dan. That form is normally only done during his/her inauguration as the GM. Name of the form is Dong Seung, it has 99 moves. The ATA GM goes thru quite a lot leading up to his/her inauguration, including learning that particular form.

MP, I'm glad to see that you've had a chance to see the effective side of Kata; Bunkai. And that what you saw was effective indeed. As a Karateka, I understand the disdain for Kata for the varied reason(s), but as a proponent of Kata, which includes effective Bunkai/Oyo Bunkai, my temperature reaches a boiling point when I read/hear negative comments about Kata as a whole, and it's because of what has been done in many of the martial art styles that just don't teach Bunkai along with the Kata/Form at all...this I don't like, and this I don't understand. I don't teach dancing, no, I teach Shindokan Karate-do Saitou-ryu. Ok...I need to lay down for a moment or two.

My ears perked up while I read about the intensity and all...that's a testing cycle...YES!! Congrats Clay on your promotion and it looks like you need to get ready for your Shodan testing cycle...especially with those Sensei's that have helped you thus far. WAY TO GO CLAY!!

I, too, wholeheartedly agree with your most solid post MP...thank you sir!!

I'm of the methodology that Kata without Bunkai is nothing more than a dance; pretty to watch but ineffective and without substance.

That's exactly what I was wondering. GM's techniques were not GM caliber, imho. Students will want to emulate the GM, for the GM is the head of the style/organization in every shape, way, and/or form. Kime is FOCUS...POWER!! Kime is not MOTION(S)!! I'm just aking a/the question. I mean no disrespect to GM In Ho Lee and/or the ATA Organization and/or any ATA student.

Will you be challenged? If not, keep looking. Platitudes and the like are fine for decorations, but it's the core of the Chief Instructor that I'd look into. Watch him/her, study him/her, and how well does he/she interact with students and guests. Watch a lot of classes! Things will reveal themselves during class. Good luck!

First off...Welcome to KarateForums.com 29Bill. Imho, recommending a style of the martial arts is like recommending anything...it'll end of being more of a hit and miss because "tastes" aren't the same from person to person. However, I think Zaine offers up some concrete recommendations that you might want to explore. Travel is a major concern of joining anything because of time restraints and such, but not out of the question. If a school has what you want and need, travel just has to be figured into your decision. Will you be challenged across the board for the things that you want and need from the martial arts? If not, another plan is called for. If you don't want to worry about Kata in any shape, way, and/or form, then Shorin-ryu isn't for you, and for that fact, most, if not all Japanese and Okinawan arts aren't for you. Any, if my memory serves me correctly, "contact" Karate styles might be out because they're going to have Kata within their curriculum. I don't know of many, if any, Karate styles that don't have Kata in their curriculum. Do any Chinese styles, they're more than likely going to have "Forms" in their curriculum as well. Most, if not all, Korean styles will more than likely have their share of "Forms" in their curriculum as well. Can one avoid Kata/Forms in the martial arts? Sure! Boxing doesn't have Kata. MMA doesn't have Kata. Savate doesn't have Kata. Wrestling doesn't have Kata. BJJ doesn't have Kata. Aikido and Judo don't have Kata, to a small extent, although they've Randori training; Kata is the laboratory, while Randori or free practice, is the testing ground. Jeet Kune Do doesn't have Kata. Krav Maga doesn't have Kata. The list of Kata-less forms of the martial arts are out there, one just has to research them and then find them and then are they within ones acceptable travel area. Good luck with your search and I look forward in hearing what you decide when the time comes.

Any comments?

>I'm afraid of the punch that doesn't penetrate. >I'm afraid of the kick the doesn't cause harm. >I'm afraid of the block that doesn't deflect. >I'm afraid of the strike that doesn't break. >I'm afraid of the application that's not effective. Too often, as practitioners of the martial arts will do, we train; but I fear that many practitioners train reserved. Many are taught, for example, when they spar, to stop/arrest any said technique within a hair's-breadth of any said target for safeties sake, and then its realized and reinforced at some local weekend tournament. What happens when the technique counts and it doesn't because of practices that are honed in us? As an instructor, I'm responsible for what and how I teach my students. I'd hate to train my students for tournaments and belts only because there are limits to that type of constant training, imho. On a closing note, live training is critical, and in that, live contact should be paramount. That's why I teach my student to be that resisting Uke when training, for example, in Tuite, but only after the technique/application has been taught. I look forward to your responses...thank you.

A very SOLID post Danielle!

My Dai-Soke loved to turn the tables on us quite often... "You teach me today. Please, you show me. I want to see what you found in your Oyo training...but it must be effective! I don't care the Kata you pick, just be effective." I'm from the camp of those who believe that Bunkai is based on ones own interpretation, however, it must still be effective.

Sorry Alex, I didn't mean for the thread to make the turn(s) it made from my one question.

When you wake up one morning and you talk yourself out of training that day: this could be a sign of burnout. When you take short-cuts in your usual length of training and excuse it away: this could be another sign of burnout When you suddenly stop training because the mundane repetitive nature of training is weighing...again, all of a sudden: this could be another sign of burnout.

"Opps!!"and "AHA!!"...these are the wrong times to realize a boo-boo's been made.

Solid post!!

That might be the million dollar question with no obvious answer. I agree. I've heard people say they are "starting a new tradition" at my daughter's high school. So, I'd say that tradition isn't necessarily based on the "age" of an activity, or how long it has been around, but more likely has more to do with the frequency and consistency it has been observed, and its part in a culture, perhaps. Well, that's a pretty good answer there Brian!!

I'm in opposition of the Sine Wave and here's why. Grading in ITF without succumbing to their methodology might be nearly impossible. I too, being a karateka, don't understand the Sine Wave methodology, even though I've heard many, many explanations/reasons for it. I firmly believe that the Sine Wave methodology, especially the excessive Sine Wave, robs the practitioner of power. Why? The quickest way between point 'A' to point 'B' is a straight line. Sine Wave isn't a straight line. Sine Wave methodology acts to me like a wind-up, and MA techniques don't require a wind-up; MA techniques aren't a baseball pitch.

Good point Brian.

Ryan, First and foremost, welcome to KarateForums.com. Secondly, congratulations on earning your Shodan...an accomplishment in itself, imho. Thirdly, you shouldn't feel badly about wanting to change clubs and/or styles. Your martial arts is yours and yours alone, and no one should try to make your martial arts theirs. Having said that Ryan, you've noted reasons for pondering your MA path, and your reasons are viable, but more importantly, you have the absolute right to your reasons. Inasmuch, you're not contemplating to quit, to me, that's the most important thing to remember. You're just wanting a change, and change is inevitable and change needs to be embraced. It also sounds to me that with all of the negative things, i.e. instructor moral, numbers dropping, non-challenged training, etc, it appears that change is exactly what you need and what you want. I applaud your courage because it takes courage to recognize and respect change. Change is scary to some because of the unknown. I believe that whatever it is that you finally decide, you'll be fine. Your MA betterment requires it of you. Be true to your MA path and remember, it's YOUR path. Be proud of your path!! I don't have to approve of your decision, but I must respect it; I wholeheartedly do!! Good luck!

I truly take no marked notice about how Oyama or anybody sits and for whatever their reason(s) may or may not be. In that, I've no theory to offer as to why Oyama sat the way he did...sorry Ev!

I too have no problems at all with anything that the security officer had to do!! I asked the question about the amount of limited "powers" of a security officer because I've read about where the police have had to arrest a security officer because that security officer "...had no legal right or jurisdiction in which to administer".

Yeah, that arm bar IS pretty slick. The chaining of movements and experienced transition worked to the practitioner in white's advantage, that's for sure. Thanks for sharing it Alex!!

While it's a far fetched thing to worry about, but still possible...BURNOUT! Intensive training might lead to one to experience some type of temporary burnout for one reason or another.