sensei8

The above bold type answers your own question... "Why would it ever be a bad thing for a kyu to ask a dan to spar." In this hypothetical, the Kyu wasn't politely asking after the Dan refused his initial invitation to spar. The Dan refused the Kyu at first because the small group of Dan's were training among themselves. Ask once, then disappear if politely refused, which is what the Dan did at the first invitation. Then the Kyu asks again impolitely! This is why he was launched. Don't ask the question if one doesn't want the answer; the Kyu got the answer! I never refuse anyone, no matter the rank, to engage in any training. That's how we all learn, even me, no matter the rank "teaching" me. But if I politely refuse, for whatever reason(s), the invitation, don't be rude and don't ask me why.

Here's my affiliations... Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice,...and some more practice, and more practice... In addition... Exchange/cross train with MAists everywhere and from every style of the MA.

Koryu is a term used to refer to the martial traditions / schools of mainland Japan that were in existence prior to the Meiji restoration. They originated from the warrior clans and continued up until the creation of the modern military in the late 1800's. Their raison detre was somewhat different to that of Okinawan karate which developed (primarily) as a system of civilian self defence. That said, I have heard it argued that some authorities in Japan recognise Goju ryu as a koryu although that is a little contentious. Most scholars refer to koryu as schools / sytstems originating from mainland Japan and as such karate schools do not make the list. K. Well, that's probably why I never heard Soke and/or Dai-Soke ever refer to Shindokan as a koryu. Thanks for the info, but I'll still check our scrolls and the like to be for sure.

This might help you.... Inside the forum...Health, Training and Fitness, you'll see a thread titled...The Martial Artist' Training Log. Here is where other KF members post theirs.

Wecome to KF!!!!!!!!

I owe you my friend more than I can ever express!! THANK YOU!!

Yes..Congrats!!

Look, I've asked Dai-Soke if he wanted to Kumite with me...just AFTER...he's was training with our Soke...WHILE...they were just having a after class light discussion. Well.... This wasn't allowed!! He was on the floor with our Soke, being taught by our Soke, and we were ONLY allowed to observe...not interfere!! I knew what he meant when he barked at me...BAKA-SAMA...He just called me a fool, not just a fool, but a big fool. I was Hachidan! But, the floor at this time was ONLY for Soke and Dai-Soke. Remember, Soke only had ONE official student...Dai-Soke!! Their times on the floor were their's and I was on their floor at the very wrong time. I assumed I was "allowed" on the floor...but Soke hadn't released Dai-Soke from class YET!! I assumed...class was over. Even then, I should have asked permission to approach them. Rank and all don't mean a hill of beans when ones intrusive and unwanted. My bad!!

Yes! I've experienced this over the many years. I tell them..."Sorry, if you're thinking that ranks more important than learing/training/knowledge, then by all means, leave right now. Don't come back until you can honestly say that rank is secondary to training and the like. Now, leave right now!! Hold on...I'll hold the door for you. I don't want a student who thinks ranks more important than anything else. Get out and get out NOW!!" I've no patience and I've no ambiguity when it comes to students/spouses/parents/friends/relatives who think that RANK IS GUARANTEED! No! That attitude will GUARANTEE them an escort to the nearest exit door!!

You know what the huff and puff means? You're alive still...barely...but still alive!! Sometimes I need that validation. Heehehhehehee

It's been suggested to our Hombu's Executive Administration by outsiders that we'd be better served by our students if we "latched-on" to one of the well noted Okinawa governing bodies so that the Hombu "will be more credible" seeing that our Soke/Dai-Soke are no longer "part of the picture" any longer. Hhhhmmmm! Really?!? After about a very, very short meeting, the Hombu's Executive Administration decided that "we're not interested! Thank you for the consideration!" I've meet and I'm close to a many well noted Karateka's and it surprises me that while they're extraordinary Karateka's across the board, they STILL feel that they must have an affiliation with some well noted governing body from either Japan or Okinawa. I'll see it on their business cards! I'll see it on their letterheads!! I'll see it on their websites!! I'll see it on their window front!! I'll even hear it when they're engaged in a conversation referring to validity and the like. Why? I've no idea and they usually explain it to me with one word..."Credibility"! Well, the governing body might be credible but that doesn't make those practitioners of the MA credible. PROOF IS ON THE FLOOR!! If I can't stand on my own two feet, then I've no business teaching/training/practicing/conversation/administrating Shindokan ever! Not now, not back then, and not in the future. Even our own Shindokan dojo's that are affiliated with the Hombu do so because they want to, they've chosen to do so, and the Hombu never forced them to, nor did the Hombu ask them if they wanted to. The Hombu makes itself available to EVERYONE within the Shindokan family!! Even if they don't choose to be affiliated with the Hombu, the Hombu will still recognize their dojo, its CI, its students, and their rank!! The affiliation with the Hombu doesn't make that Shindokan dojo credible. NO!! They already had that because they were affiliated with Soke and Dai-Soke along time ago. By affiliated I mean, they knew them quite personally. They "handled" them; they spoke with them, they trained with them, they touched them, they learnt from them, they bleed with them, and they laughed/cried with them, they broke bread with them...face to face...eye to eye!! BUT... I'm not in the market of joining/affiliating with any governing body from anywhere for the sake of "Appearances". Want to "test" us? Want to "verify" us? Want to? Go for it!! Opinions are just that, nothing more and nothing less. In the world, we're nobody. On the floor, we're credible/verifiable/etc!!

I'd say that Shindokan Saitou-ryu is Koryu. Very "old school" across the board in both methodologies as well as ideologies. Both our Soke and Dai-Soke, born, raised, trained in Okinawa-te and Shuri-te. Our Kobudo brand utilizes very old school type Kobudo weapons/training. Yeah, I'd say we're Koryu. It's just that I've never heard either Soke/Dai-Soke refer to Shindokan as Koryu. I'll look into our scrolls and the like to see if either mention it.

I was thinking these exact things. As usual, Sensei8 says it all. Just some personal thoughts to add... I think that in general leadership is not as clear-cut as many people would like to think. Outside of the dojo, no one is given kyu or dan rank in life. We may place titles on our names like "Professor" or "Director" or "President" but even so, you can't truly say that without such a title a person cannot lead. Neither can you say that just having the title, or even being elected into the position makes you a good leader. Being a good leader has little to do with rank in my opinion (although in the dojo we strive to make them more connected). I believe that it has more to do with the desire to help others work together effectively. So what to do in a situation like that? That is your chance to step-in and be a good leader to him and everyone else in the class. You don't have to be a high rank or order people around to do that though! Just be kind and respectful to everyone and be serious and confident with your own training and who knows, maybe even that red belt will want to take a page out of your book. Very solid post!!

Hold the wagon for a moment. THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL!! Nothing more!! I apologize for not making that more clearly understood. For the sake of having a conversation!! That's why I've asked some of the questions that I did. I've visited dojo's in the past, those that are not Shindokan dojos, where a Dan can ask a Kyu but not visa versa, and if so, it was considered a sign of disrespect or looked upon as a challenge. Please don't read anything into it!!

Bingo!!

Shindokan Saitou-ryu is an independent governing body. Our Soke NEVER wanted to be affiliated with any noted governing body from Okinawa because he didn't want to follow their rules/regulations because that wouldn't allow him any flexibility. Shindokan is his and if the SKKA that he founded isn't good enough with anybody, especially Okinawa, then so be it. Shindokan wasn't founded by our Soke for a Okinawa governing body to say yea or nay.

Vastly EXPLORE that particular application and I believe that you'll find more than what you've been told by your sensei/instructor. However, it'll be hard to explore in the beginning because your mind will not release what your sensei/instructor has taught you...at first. Stay with it and you'll see other effective applications!!

Very nice topic and some great replies! Thanks for starting this topic Himokiri Karate!! Interpretation of Kata is an interesting and valid concern within itself. Are the "throws" doable/effective when "we" perform them as they "might have" been designed by the creator of said kata? It's the EFFORT of the training that might answer that, and in that, the lack of proper training effort at the analysis might fall short of the intended desires. The "throws" in kata don't work when practitioners are training with a unresistant training partner. Work with a resistant training partner one learns to "work" through the "throws" so that one can see how the body mechanics work, and even in that, adaptive changes might be needed to pull the "throw" off successfully.

I suppose that Shindokan is doomed because Soke and Dai-Soke aren't alive anymore, seeing that they were from Okinawa and the American Karateka's are from USA. Do I have to have Shindokan become recognized by someone in Okinawa? If so, that's not what our Soke wanted and this isn't what the Hombu wants. Catch-22 I suppose.

No matter the topic of the conversation, the group/governing body. No matter the media source; when the MA is concerned, moreover Karate, validity is measured by whether it's linked directly to Japan and/or Okinawa. Is there a direct connection to some Master from Japan and/or Okinawa? If any said Karate style isn't directly affiliated to some well noted governing body and/or Karate Master, well, that said Karate style is invalid. Hhhhhhmmmmmm....Hhhhhhhmmmmmmm!! I do concur with the consensus that Karate, for its majority of styles, originated from Japan or Okinawa. However, Karate is NOT owned by Japan or Okinawa!! Karate belongs to everyone!! Furthermore, the MA doesn't belong to it's country of origin!! Shindokan, the Karate style I've trained in for nearly 49 years, is Okinawa based, founded in Okinawa, its Soke and Dai-Soke were both born and raised and trained and buried in Okinawa. However, it's now administrated by American Karateka's. Our governing body, Shindokan Karate and Kobudo Association (SKKA) was founded and chartered by Soke and Dai-Soke in Okinawa shortly before they both moved to the USA, where they opened the Shindokan Hombu in Canoga Park, California...USA. Having said that, Soke NEVER once relied and/or depended and/or needed and/or wanted to become affilitated with the governing bodies of Okinawa of that time; past, present, and/or future! Were they on their own? Yeah, and Soke wanted it no other way. Affiliations are often times confused with validity; two completely separate meanings, is which, they're, if used together, oxymorons. Having an affiliation with a governing body and/or a well noted MAist from Japan or Okinawa doesn't make the style and/or the instructor/practitioner credible. One might be affiliated with the, for example, the SKIF and/or Kanazawa Sensei, but that doesn't mean that the style and/or the individual is credible on or off the floor. I knew Dai-Soke but I'm no Dai-Soke. One might know Kanazawa Sensei but that one's no Kanazawa Sensei. Guru Inosanto knew Bruce Lee but he was no Bruce Lee. Again, proof can't be found in a seal or a patch. No!! Where it matters, imho, is on the floor. Either you can or you can't!! In closing, whatever validity or proof one is seeking or needing for their style of the MA for their piece of mind, let me reiterate this without any ambiguity whatsoever! The proof won't be found on any wall and/or in any file cabinet and/or in any governing body...NO...Proof is on the floor. You don't need to have an affiliation with any Japan and/or Okinawa governing body because American Karateka's are worthy....IMHO!! It's about time we stood up for our American Karate and not worry about having the blessing of some governing body from Japan or Okinawa. I don't need some Okinawa governing body blessing Shindokan because Soke and Dai-Soke ALREADY DID THAT!! Your thoughts?

You're the Chief Instructor (CI) of the ABC Karate Dojo. It's a Saturday afternoon open workout; all ranks permitted. You're meandering around your students, closely observing them, offering assistance whenever asked, and conducting impromptu lessons from time to time. Your students are seriously engaged in their workouts, either by themselves or in small groups of 2-4, over a wide variety of techniques, and drills or involved with a training apparatus or some light kumite. Just past the half-way point of this open workout, something catches your eyes and ears. A Kyu ranked student has ceremoniously approached a tiny gathering of Dan ranked students; there's nothing unusual about that, it happens all of the time. However, it's what the Kyu student ASKS, that's a no-no. You idly watch from a short distance away as the scene unfolds. This Kyu student asks if any of the Dan ranks want to kumite. As the Dan's begin to stare at each other in wonderment at the Kyu's unbelievable lack of proper respect for the dojo rules. The Kyu asks the Dan's again. The most senior of the Dan's walks up to this Kyu and politely refuses the invitation, bows, and instructs the Kyu to re-assume whatever training the Kyu was doing before. The Kyu asks the Dan's again! The most senior Dan agrees and instructs the Kyu to don the appropriate safety gear. They bow. Your gaze is at fever pitch, then you slightly grimace because the Kyu's wide open and you already know what's about to happen. WHAM! THUD! The Kyu's prostrated on the floor about 3 feet back from where the Kyu once was before the Dan launched the Kyu with a beautiful lead-leg side snap kick. Moaning, the Kyu slowly lifts its head and is wide-eyed expression tells you everything you need to know, but more importantly it tells you the Kyu is only shook up but not hurt physically...pride...well...that's quite hurt. As the CI... 1) Now, what do you do? 2) Do you counsel the Kyu or the Dan or both? 3) Was the dojo rules broken? When do you, as the CI, enforce the kun? 4) Everytime? 5) Are you consistent in enforcing the rules? 6) Are you consistently fair while enforcing the rules? 7) In enforcing the rules, are you the bottom line or the bottom rung? Thoughts?

Oh...Hey...thanks!! With Brian (bushido_man96), Pat (SaiFightsMS), Heidi (ninjanurse), Alex (tallgeese) and Patrick, I'm in great company across the board. Many here know that I owe everything to Patrick and the Sensei's of KF because there was a time that I was almost banned/kicked off of KF, and very well deserved so. I'll never forget them for their assistance/help...ever!! It's also because KF has some AWESOME members and without them, I'd have nothing to contribute to...so...I share this recognition with every KF member!! Thanks... Now...on my way to 10,000 posts.

Very nice...I love seeing things like this. CONGRATS to all!!

If their convicted...they should NEVER teach ANYBODY for the rest of their lives ANYTHING...that's just me.

Today... One of my favorites... TUITE for all ranks.