Lord Apocalypse Posted August 4, 2003 Posted August 4, 2003 Hello all, thought it was about time i registered instead of just reading. A bit about me, i'm a 20 year old brown belt practitioner of Shukokai/Shito Ryu Karate and am most interested in kata and applications as quite a few of you are So with that out of the way i have recently began looking at seienchin in more detail and have a question on other people's applications, The starting salutation thing, where both hands come to hikite, then the feet turn heel outward to form what we call the funky stance(unsure of proper name) then the arms push downwards. Application wise me and my buddy can't come up with anything, i should point out that my club is sadly more sport orientated and on the rare occasions that we have kata classes, some of the applications are very unrealistic, ie blocking a kick with gedan barai then turning round to face another attacker and block punch etc, so me and my buddy are attempting to sort the balance., with books and vids, namely iain abernethy and russel stutley and the dsi along with getting into situations on the mat and thinking about them in my sleep nearly. So can anyone help me out with some ideas on applications for this. Oh and sorry for the long first post, i ain't usually this boring. hey cool smilies Mijukumono ga! Warawaseru na!
GrrrArg Posted August 4, 2003 Posted August 4, 2003 Your description is a bit vague but that sounds more like Bassai-dai than Seiunchin to me. Im just learning Seiunchin properly now as well.
Sauzin Posted August 4, 2003 Posted August 4, 2003 Nope, that's definitely Seienchin. The "funky" stance is sheicodachi (sp?) or a squat stance. I wasn't sure if Shito Ryu practiced it with a squat or a horse stance? Well let's just assume were talking about the squat stance. So let’s take a look at what I know of this movement. You start hands low, open, and together. Left heel turns out then your right foot steps out at a 45 and you settle in a squat stance. Hands are still together but now stretched out at about eye level. Then the hands separate and they draw a huge circle then come back together, palms facing away from each other, and come up to about neck/collar level. Then close to fists and then perform two low blocks to each 45 angle. Does that sound about right? Now let’s talk about the very first movement. Try doing it without the arms involved and an opponent punching for your face. You'll notice he misses as you step off to his 45. Now do this again but raise your arms, keeping your hands together. You'll notice his punch has been blocked and depending on which side you had him punch with you may be very close to gouging his eyes or neck. It is also very likely, if you got the angle right, that your opponent has been knocked of balance. Now perform the big circle it should naturally capture one of his arms. If you had him punch with his left then it will capture an arm and bring him down to a throat gouge. If it was his right then his floating rib will be accessible. From there you can take it however you like. You can throw a person just by applying the first motion against a high punch with a firm and connected arm. It's amazing what happens as you raise your arms for that motion. Just remember to keep the hands together until you have settled in the squat stance. That's the trick. Have fun. -Paul Holsinger The only two things that stand between an effective art and one that isn't are a tradition to draw knowledge from and the mind to practice it.
Goju1 Posted August 4, 2003 Posted August 4, 2003 The starting salutation thing, where both hands come to hikite, then the feet turn heel outward to form what we call the funky stance(unsure of proper name) then the arms push downwards. In Goju Ryu, the application would be: grabbing an attacker's wrists, then pulling down and apart while striking with knee. The stance is Shiko-dachi, (straddle stance)
Lord Apocalypse Posted August 5, 2003 Author Posted August 5, 2003 Sauzin, that is the part after what i'm talking about, but what you have said has just further convinced me of some applications for that. A trend i have noticed in kata is that when the arms come up in that way there is almost always a 45 degree turn which suggest moving out of the effective range of the punch/swing/hook etc whilst covering. The part i am asking about is, in our style we start with left hand crossedover right at about waist level with the heels together and pointing outward, then hands to hikite at the same time our heels move outward but the toes are still touching then the arms push down towards the floor, it then goes on to the horse stance hands up to face bit. Gojo1, that sounds to be the right bit i think...will experiment with that and see what else i can come up with. Mijukumono ga! Warawaseru na!
GrrrArg Posted August 5, 2003 Posted August 5, 2003 I see what you mean now it is seiunchin, it was just when you said "The starting salutation thing", that made me think of the chineese salute in bassai-dai.
chris10 Posted August 7, 2003 Posted August 7, 2003 sorry this doesnt soyund like seuchin to me. our seiuchin steps out into the horse stance. this sounds more like nahanchi kata were the feet step in and the heels move out and you drop your body weight. i always imagine hitting somene in the stomach to help bring their head down. this works well for small people against bigger people. since i am naturally a big guy i still train to hit the body but i will vary it from time to time hope that helps
Sauzin Posted August 7, 2003 Posted August 7, 2003 Some seuchins start with moving to a horse stance and others to a squat stance, that depends on the style. (Isshinryu vs Gojuryu for example) Likewise the very beginning movement of the hands and feet coming together can also vary from style to style so the meanings can be quite different. Most people start with bringing the hands and feet together in some fashion then moving out. The way they do this can be interpreted as anything from a wrist lock vs a grab or indeed a foot catch. Personally I look at is as a starting position necessary for create the angle of accent used by the arms as you move into the squat or horse stance. But of course everything including the bow in a kata has its own martial interpretation. -Paul Holsinger The only two things that stand between an effective art and one that isn't are a tradition to draw knowledge from and the mind to practice it.
mikS Posted August 9, 2003 Posted August 9, 2003 Nope, that's definitely Seienchin. He was talking about the part before the first 45 degree shiko dachi, right after mitsubi.
mikS Posted August 9, 2003 Posted August 9, 2003 Some seuchins start with moving to a horse stance and others to a squat stance, that depends on the style. (Isshinryu vs Gojuryu for example) Likewise the very beginning movement of the hands and feet coming together can also vary from style to style so the meanings can be quite different. Most people start with bringing the hands and feet together in some fashion then moving out. The way they do this can be interpreted as anything from a wrist lock vs a grab or indeed a foot catch. Personally I look at is as a starting position necessary for create the angle of accent used by the arms as you move into the squat or horse stance. But of course everything including the bow in a kata has its own martial interpretation. -Paul Holsinger Can we please spell seinchin right?
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