Help! Need sexist martial art - let me explain...

[Sens55]

I have to second our young Rising Soldier on this one. Along with what Kirves pointed out earlier. If your wife has an issue with it, bring her along. If she won't participate, have her watch so she knows there's nothing there. That being said, if she's that untrusting, there may be bigger issues at hand. Grappling on a sweaty mat with a group of people around is hardly an environment for intimacy. Having drinks together after class is another issue, though.

 

If you're on the level and haven't given her a reason not to trust you, then I'd say there may be some stronger issues at hand here. My 1st wife was quite untrusting and always thought there was more than meets the eye in everything. It was one of the contributing factors in our divorce. Trust is a foundation. Without it, you can build a house, but it won't stay up for long. Address that issue and things like grappling will take care of themselves. Otherwise, you'll quit your training, but the problem will still be there and manifest itself somewhere else later on.

[Black Dragon]

Just do an art that doesn't have you rolling around with women. Simple as that. Although I hardly feel sorry for you at all. In fact I would want as many females as possible in a Jujitsu class! "oh, no I'm in a triangle choke, Help!"

[Kate]

*edit* Edited October 17, 2003 by Kate

[kchenault]

Has anyone noticed he hasn't posted a response lately? He may be uncomfortable with being in so close a proximity with a woman who is not his wife. I think karate_woman nailed it, maybe they have convictions about touching another woman. Where is the tolerance for him. I would be more concerned with the sensei giving him a bloody lip for the request. In America that is assault and battery. That would probably get a Sensei at least 30 days in the clink. There is nothing wrong with his request. I have personally seen women only gyms. The hypocrisy knows no bounds of the politically correct in the world!

[Ben]

i'm going to sound very sexist and ignorant here, but i feel it has to be said.

 

The world over, there have been women only clubs. for this, that, and whatever - and i'm getting sick of it. its ok to have women only classes, children only classes, but not male only classes. if there was a male only class, i think some men would concentrate better and feel more determined to push their abilities - cause many men dont want to hurt women in the slightest.

 

from a person point of view, i would be all for a men only club. i sometimes get distracted while stretching because we have a stunning blonde woman who is a model in our class. it takes a decent amount of concentration to ignore this - and i can see many men in the room dont have this level of focus. i know some of you may say "they should have better concentration" but come on... you see a stunning woman at a nightclub do you just ignore her?

 

I would be all for taking the wife and kids with me, to show them exactly how it is in the dojo/dojang.

 

hope you're still ok and your wife hasnt quite locked you in the house yet!

 

just my 2$

 

oh - btw, about the "assault". you cant teach old methods in a new age and expect the law today not to conflict sometimes pain is the best way to focus.

[kchenault]

The assault happened when he was hit for asking a question, not because that is the old method. You don't pay someone to hit you for asking a question, he has a legitimate concern and should be treated accordingly. That is the point I am trying to make. I agree with your comments on male only clubs though.

[Bart the Lover]

Ben wrote:

i would be all for a men only club. i sometimes get distracted while stretching because we have a stunning blonde woman who is a model in our class.

 

You want a men-only class because you get distracted? If you're

 

so easily distracted, how do you control yourself at work/school/college?

 

There may or may not be good reasons for a men-only class, but to

 

exclude women for such a trivial reason is laughable.

[Ben]

i understand that kchenault. i'll try and explain what i meant...

 

in older days, people wouldnt say anything about such acts. in my oppinion he was wrong to hit him, but at the same point i can understand where he's coming from, and i feel like no one needs to say anything about legal action, or use "law" terms. from what i understand it was a one off "shouldnt have happened" incidents. i dont come across overly well for the most part, and i apologise. i'm just going through a stage where i see everyone is making assult claims and trying to sue etc... just gets me slightly annoyed i guess. after re-reading some things, i understand that i just took things the wrong way, so its my fault.

You want a men-only class because you get distracted? If you're

 

so easily distracted, how do you control yourself at work/school/college?

 

only while stretching, and not from a more perverted point of view before you might get an idea. i use stretching as a more relaxing part of the session. i'm not exactly in shape at the moment and so as soon as we start stretches i just like to relax my mind a little and slowly kick my brain into gear for the next part of the session. this is where it can occasionally (but not often) wonder off somewhere for a brief moment or two.

 

and also, going back to your point, many women go to womens only clubs because they think they'll never be able to compete against men. if this is the only reason, which from what i gather it is (along with other related topics) does that mean they dont have the right to have a womens only club? and that they should take part with men?

 

and to be honest, if i meet someone i like outside the dojang, i would go over and talk to them. the reason i do not allow myself to get into friendships with the women of the group is because if anything sexual happened, i know that i would not see training the same way i do now. i would be less focused on training and more interested on her. some people might think thats weak - i've even been told that. but hey... isnt the point of martial arts to try and stop something from happening if you can?

 

[Edit: i'm very defensive here, but i feel i still hold some valid points. my natural reaction is to be very defensive and its something i'm trying to work on. apologies if i offend.]

[Bart the Lover]

Ben: Firstly, I'm sorry I used the word laughable. That was too harsh.

 

You wrote:

and also, going back to your point, many women go to womens only clubs because they think they'll never be able to compete against men. if this is the only reason, which from what i gather it is (along with other related topics) does that mean they dont have the right to have a womens only club? and that they should take part with men?

 

Ummm...if it's the only reason, how can there be other related topics?! I'm

 

not trying to trip you up, or poke fun at your writing. I just not clear what

 

you are saying here.

 

I always the thought the motivation for women-only classes were quite

 

varied. Religion, worries about getting hurt, or not wanting to be in

 

proximity to strange men after an assault. However, these are just

 

guesses. I haven't conducted surveys, or read research. You don't explain

 

how you know it's because 'they'll never be able to compete with men'.

 

I would have thought that was a minor consideration, if it featured at all.

 

It is also unfounded, unless you believe brute force in itself makes you

 

a good martial artist.

 

Also, I never said anything about women-only classes. I passed no

 

judgement. Nor did I say men should not have access to men-only classes.

 

To be honest, I've never thought about it. I would point out, though, that I

 

think it is wrong to draw a direct comparison between the two. Historically,

 

men-only endeavours have been used to hamper women's involvment in

 

politics, sport, business etc. Sometimes women had to set up their own

 

classes or societies simply to get on in life. I realise things are different now,

 

at least in Europe and North America (but not perfect). But the

 

sensitivity remains. It doesn't make people hypocrites, just cautious.

the reason i do not allow myself to get into friendships with the women of the group is because if anything sexual happened, i know that i would not see training the same way i do now. i would be less focused on training and more interested on her.

 

I've noticed many people on these boards saying similar things. Personally,

 

I think it's a pity to exclude someone who might be compatible because

 

it might interfere with your training. Seems a bit ascetic to me! But

 

obviously that's your right. It seems extreme to want a men-only class on

 

this basis, though.

 

Regards,

 

Bart the Lover

[Cyberclown]

Hi folks...I hope I've followed this winding thread and boiled it down to seemingly two issues.

 

If a wife has a problem with her husband grappling with the women he trains with under the instructor's supervision then there is a problem with communication in the marraige, plain and simple. Focus on that and fix it and the problem goes away, hopefully to the benifit of continued training.

 

If the issue is someone wanting a "men only" school I don't see the need. In my school in the adult classes I have no problem getting men to grapple (albeit on a limited basis) with the married women in class, often as their husband is standing by observing. Of course I also often match husbands and wives together, but I find the familiararity between them can hamper the lesson at times.

 

I also have no problem matching women with women.

 

I certainly have no problem with matching men with men and letting them turn it up a notch, the ladies are able to watch (if not training at something else), often picking up a point or two, either in technique or mindset, etc.

 

I am very lucky in that My wife is also a master instructor. Some nights (though not very often) we will split the class by gender and her and the ladies work out while me and the other men train at the other end.

 

I have a VERY family oriented dojang. My students interact well with each other.

 

I would have no problem with someone having an all male/female school. Although I do believe whatever advantage there is to such a school would be outweighed by the advantages of a more diverse student body.