Do you teach everything?

[bushido_man96]

Could be several reasons.  Perhaps there are only a few things an instructor would be willing share with only the most dedicated students, those that are willing to spend years studying under him or her.  Perhaps the instructor just doesn't see the value in something and therefore doesn't bother to teach it.  Perhaps something better was figured out and that is passed along instead.

[Furinkazan]

On 11/22/2025 at 12:17 PM, Spartacus Maximus said:

Chibana of shorin ryu , for instance was well known for insisting on passing on exactly everything Itosu taught him.

I'm not so sure about that.  First, Chosin Chibana did create kihon and fukyugatas.  In other words, he added things.

Secondly, Kobayashi Shorin-ryu teaches the Naihanchi series before the Pinan series.  There are valid arguments for and against this, but the Pinan series was specifically created by Itosu to be the first katas taught, which means that Chibana went against this.

The other thing Kobayashi Shorin-ryu is known for is the lack of Tomari-te katas.  I know of some Kobayashi-ryu schools that teach Rohai, but it was added after the fact, as neither Chibana nor Nakazato taught it.

I find it hard to believe that Itosu taught all of his other students Tomari-te katas, except for Chibana.

[Zaine]

2 hours ago, Furinkazan said:

I'm not so sure about that.  First, Chosin Chibana did create kihon and fukyugatas.  In other words, he added things.

Secondly, Kobayashi Shorin-ryu teaches the Naihanchi series before the Pinan series.  There are valid arguments for and against this, but the Pinan series was specifically created by Itosu to be the first katas taught, which means that Chibana went against this.

The other thing Kobayashi Shorin-ryu is known for is the lack of Tomari-te katas.  I know of some Kobayashi-ryu schools that teach Rohai, but it was added after the fact, as neither Chibana nor Nakazato taught it.

I find it hard to believe that Itosu taught all of his other students Tomari-te katas, except for Chibana.

I don't think him adding things negates the statement that he insisted on teaching everything that Itosu passed on. As to the final statement, I don't know enough about Itosu's personal karate to make a comment on his teaching Tomari-Te. I was under the impression that he was largely in the Shuri-Te camp. Do you have more information about his study of Tomari-Te?

[Furinkazan]

11 minutes ago, Zaine said:

I don't think him adding things negates the statement that he insisted on teaching everything that Itosu passed on. As to the final statement, I don't know enough about Itosu's personal karate to make a comment on his teaching Tomari-Te. I was under the impression that he was largely in the Shuri-Te camp. Do you have more information about his study of Tomari-Te?

Yes - Gichin Funakoshi, Kenwa Mabuni, Chomo Hanashiro, and Shinpan Gusukuma all learned Tomari-te kata from Itosu.  I don't see why Chibana wouldn't have.

[Zaine]

17 minutes ago, Furinkazan said:

Yes - Gichin Funakoshi, Kenwa Mabuni, Chomo Hanashiro, and Shinpan Gusukuma all learned Tomari-te kata from Itosu.  I don't see why Chibana wouldn't have.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Where did you find this information? I would like to read into it myself.

[Furinkazan]

7 minutes ago, Zaine said:

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Where did you find this information? I would like to read into it myself.

Funakoshi discussed what he learned from both Anko Itosu and Anko Asato in Karate-do: My Way of Life, and some of his other works.

Both Mabuni and Gusukuma have only had the same two teachers: Itosu and Higaonna.  The Shito-ryu curriculum divides their kata into two groups: the ones taught by Itosu and the ones taught by Higaonna.  The Tomari-te katas are listed under the ones taught by Itosu.

Hanashiro only trained directly under Anko Itosu.

[aurik]

Our CI thinks of the curriculum as a menu.  You present the whole menu to your students, and then they can pick and choose what items off the menu really speak to them.  However, as an instructor, it is his (and my) responsibility to present the entire menu to his students.  The official, tested curriculum has changed very little in the 8 years that I have been training.  There are a few small items that have been added that were in response to COVID (set sparring combinations to give students a primer when we couldn't actually touch our opponents).  Also some small items have changed in terms of execution.  However, the on-paper requirements are the same.

I will say that things have evolved a bit here and there.  Every so often, our CI will visit Okinawa or a seminar, and find out that the grandmasters of the various organizations have changed something.  For example, at one point one of our drills was performed with the flat fist (seiken-tsuki).  Then suddenly it changed to a leopard-fist (hiraken-tsuki).  No explanation as to why, but it was just different.  These changes are sometimes specific to one organization within Uechi-Ryu, and sometimes they are across all organizations.  In any case, our karate slowly evolves over time.

[KarateKen]

This came up once and our instructor said that he teaches his students everything he knows, rank appropriate of course.  He said "any instructor that does not teach their students everything they know is cheating both the students, and the art."  

Not saying I agree or disagree, but that was his take on it.