Giving up ones rank

[Nidan Melbourne]

When I first started training in 2001, my Sensei (at the time he was a Senpai) explained to my Beginners Junior Class (9th + 8th Kyu) that there are only a handful of times that one would give up their rank. 

He only ever explained one time, but did say that with training you will find other times that giving up ones rank even if not expected but is in a way the right thing to do. That one time is if you ever abused either directly or indirectly brought disrepute to what you have done as a BB or even as an Instructor. 

For me; even though I never physically or mentally harmed any of my students. I have chosen to strip myself of my rank until a time that I believe that I am truly worthy of it again and that I have rebuilt some form of trust with the community. 

I chose to do this as I believe my actions are completely against my values and beliefs. And that being a Dan Graded Black Belt when it comes up to those standards I held it to a higher standard. Since it became untenable in my mind i chose to go back to a 9th Kyu. 

If my sensei chooses to allow me to sit for a grading for any rank that he believes is appropriate. But I honestly insist on not just Instructors to assess but also have members of the dojo give their honest opinion on me being promoted to whatever grade it is. 

I say that because, through my thousands of conversations with students over the years surrounding perceived authority and respectability alongside with rank. And many have said that one who has achieved the rank of Black Belt tends to garner a lot of respect in relation to those over 18. 

So Recently I recently gave my original belt to my club and a letter to read asking the CI to tell the students my story and why I chose to give up my belt. And why i chose to give it back to him specifically. 

For those wondering; I gave it to him because he was my original instuctor and when he started his own club I went to him after a few years (so he could get established) and he awarded  me both my 1st and 2nd Dans. So we had a strong relationship over the years that we worked/trained together. 

I also asked him that if anything were to happen to me over the years, or even if my daughter were to train with him and get to the point of being awarded her Black Belt that he award her that belt instead. In which would be a special moment in itself, so he could finally promote someone from my family to the rank of Shodan-Ho. 

Now for context for the above paragraph; My Sensei at the time had left our original club in 2008 more specifically a couple of weeks prior to my Black Belt Grading. So me going from 1st Kyu to Shodan-Ho. So he didn't get a chance to sit as an instructor at the grading nor be there to formally promote me at the promotions night. 

[Spartacus Maximus]

knowledge and skills and habits can never be erased or taken away. This means that any revocation or giving up of rank is a symbolic act. 

In personal memory there is one example of each. One is a former student of the grandmaster. This man ranked 7th or 8th dan but was disowned/expelled and struck from records after being found guilty and imprisoned for very serious violent crimes.

The other is myself. Reached 3 dan in Shorin ryu before giving up that rank and training from zero under a different association/GB of the exact same shorin ryu(kobayashi) lineage. My sensei’s teacher and the grandmaster(deceased) of my former GB were both taught by Chibana Chosin.

[Nidan Melbourne]

4 hours ago, Spartacus Maximus said:

knowledge and skills and habits can never be erased or taken away. This means that any revocation or giving up of rank is a symbolic act. 

In personal memory there is one example of each. One is a former student of the grandmaster. This man ranked 7th or 8th dan but was disowned/expelled and struck from records after being found guilty and imprisoned for very serious violent crimes.

The other is myself. Reached 3 dan in Shorin ryu before giving up that rank and training from zero under a different association/GB of the exact same shorin ryu(kobayashi) lineage. My sensei’s teacher and the grandmaster(deceased) of my former GB were both taught by Chibana Chosin.

Oh I am not denying peoples knowledge and skills if they give up their rank. 

What got you to go from 3rd Dan to White Belt? 

I've noticed that a lot of BB tend to give up rank when a time comes to it where their values, realities of life and how the two interact and can't resolve without causing issues. 

[bushido_man96]

This is a very personal thing, to be sure, and it takes quite a bit of internal reflection to determine if something like this is the right thing to do or not.  I agree that it is definitely symbolic, as the knowledge can't be taken away.

I had trained to a 2nd dan rank in one TKD organization and then became a white belt in another.  I don't know if I'd consider that "giving up rank" though.

[Spartacus Maximus]

@Nidan Melbourne

The most obvious explanation was that although it was the exact same style(Chibana lineage); the association/GB were different and so were the instructors.

The other, no less important, is that ´giving up’ any previous rank/level was essential as a sign of good faith and readiness to learn with the approach of a beginner. 

To put it into a relatable context, it could be illustrated like this:

Your grandfather passed his karate style to four sons who each founded their own association/GB. You started and trained under your father’s students and reached 3rd dan. Then a short time later, you start training with your uncle who was also taught by your GF. Same karate, same kata, same lineage….but taught differently with different focus.

All very minute but significant differences. It is as much an advantage or a disadvantage, but as far as the curriculum of kata and techniques everything was familiar. It was/is just a matter of re-learning in a different way and on a different level. 

 

 

[opr1945]

It seems to me that there is a difference between 1. stopping training in one style and moving to another.  No rejection implied.  And, 2. returning ones belt whatever the rank. Rejecting all that the belt stood for.

 

When a rejection occurs the implication to me is an epiphany has occured or something very bad happened to cause a rejection of something one has put a lot of time, effort and probably money into achieving.

So, to present a situation of returning a belt without the underlying facts is disingenuous. Either remain silent about it or give enough information that a reader can form an opinion and make a comment.

 

Just my opinion, others may differ.

Edited Thursday at 01:31 AM by opr1945

[KarateKen]

I've never given up, but I have walked away. 

[sensei8]

Here’s my thing about this subject.

When rank becomes more important than knowledge and experience, that’s when it’s time to give up rank!!

IMHO!!

[opr1945]

On 9/11/2025 at 9:11 PM, sensei8 said:

 

IMHO!!

I assume that that means "In My Humble Opinion."

If one claims to be humbe isn't that an act of boasting? And, thus, the exact opposite of being humbe?

 

 

[Nidan Melbourne]

7 hours ago, opr1945 said:

I assume that that means "In My Humble Opinion."

If one claims to be humbe isn't that an act of boasting? And, thus, the exact opposite of being humbe?

 

 

it can mean that or also mean Honest in lieu of Humble. 

So for Sensei8 he is expressing his honest opinion. From what I pick up when i read his posts is that you can typically tell which of the two versions (Honest or Humble) he means. 

On 9/11/2025 at 11:29 AM, opr1945 said:

It seems to me that there is a difference between 1. stopping training in one style and moving to another.  No rejection implied.  And, 2. returning ones belt whatever the rank. Rejecting all that the belt stood for.

 

When a rejection occurs the implication to me is an epiphany has occured or something very bad happened to cause a rejection of something one has put a lot of time, effort and probably money into achieving.

So, to present a situation of returning a belt without the underlying facts is disingenuous. Either remain silent about it or give enough information that a reader can form an opinion and make a comment.

 

Just my opinion, others may differ.

I may not have listed reasons as to why I chose to return my belt. But for some people there are reasons as to why they may not want to list such reasons on a public forum. 

Yes I did put the time, effort and a lot of money into achieving the rank that I was promoted to. I am not rejecting that in any way. 

WHen I made the OP, I do believe I left plenty for someone to form an opinion. But left wriggle room for one to ask questions or to get further clarification. 

I have trained with plenty of people who have quit training for one reason or another and returned 10+ years later. And several of them achieved some rank of Black Belt, and returned as a White Belt then regraded once they met the initial requirements (5 Tags + 30 Lessons).