Lying about Belt Ranks

[KarateKen]

Have any of you encountered this situation?  

A tournament takes place, and a competitor is competing at green belt but is actually a brown belt.  He just wants to compete against lower competition so he can beat up on them and win the prize.  What would you do if you ran a tournament and discovered that someone had done this?  I've never knowingly seen it, but there was a time or two I was suspicious.  Someone from out of town, not known to anyone running the tournament, shows up with a Gi and a belt claiming to be a student but is "independent" and not naming a dojo.  I was not running the tournament, but it seemed like nobody has to verify their rank or who they trained under since most of them were locals and all in the same circle.  One student was wearing a while belt and fighting in the green/blue belt division.  Why?  

[sensei8]

4 hours ago, KarateKen said:

A tournament takes place, and a competitor is competing at green belt but is actually a brown belt.  He just wants to compete against lower competition so he can beat up on them and win the prize.  What would you do if you ran a tournament and discovered that someone had done this?

After talking to all parties involved and lathering the necessary information, and I believe there’s enough evidence that a falsehood has occurred, all parties would be dismissed from the tournament, all involved matches where the guilty has been assigned to would be reassigned, and the guilty would be receive a lifetime banishment would be imposed immediately for cause.

Of course, if there wasn’t enough evidence to justify said accusation, then nothing would be done. I’d then speak with whomever had initiated the enquirer, explain my findings, and thank them for their time

5 hours ago, KarateKen said:

One student was wearing a while belt and fighting in the green/blue belt division

.Any tournament wherever I was its arbitrator never verified rank. If said competitor isn’t a black belt, for example, and they want to sign up to the appropriate black belt division, and run the risk of getting their lunch handed to them, then so be it.

However, if a case of rank abuse is proven, that competitor will be removed, affected matches reassigned, and a lifetime banishment would be imposed immediately for cause.

5 hours ago, KarateKen said:

I was not running the tournament, but it seemed like nobody has to verify their rank or who they trained under since most of them were locals and all in the same circle

Most, if not all, tournaments don’t verify rank, who they trained with, or said dojo was legitimate; tournaments put their competitors on a honor system…innocent until proven guilty. Local tournaments, unfortunately, are the breeding grounds for what the OP is talking about.

Proof is on the floor!! I’ve removed competitors from the floor if after watching them I don’t feel that they’re what they are claiming to be.

Integrity is everything!!

I’ve not either the time and/or the inclination for those who don’t posses one iota of integrity.

5 hours ago, KarateKen said:

Why?

That’s the million dollar question, isn’t it?!?

[Nidan Melbourne]

16 hours ago, KarateKen said:

Have any of you encountered this situation?  

A tournament takes place, and a competitor is competing at green belt but is actually a brown belt.  He just wants to compete against lower competition so he can beat up on them and win the prize.  What would you do if you ran a tournament and discovered that someone had done this?  I've never knowingly seen it, but there was a time or two I was suspicious.  Someone from out of town, not known to anyone running the tournament, shows up with a Gi and a belt claiming to be a student but is "independent" and not naming a dojo.  I was not running the tournament, but it seemed like nobody has to verify their rank or who they trained under since most of them were locals and all in the same circle.  One student was wearing a while belt and fighting in the green/blue belt division.  Why?  

Great thing to bring up, as it can happen or where people sandbag themselves below their actual skill level. 

16 hours ago, KarateKen said:

Have any of you encountered this situation? 

No I haven't experienced this in a tournament myself personnally. 

Why? Because I already compete in the 3rd Kyu + Division as an Adult. IF I did enter another division, the organiser would recognise it immediately, as I know so many people in Victoria that are either Referees or Instructors that they would immediately say something. 

The only time I would enter another division is if I was in a legitmately different MA or style of Karate (i.e. Kyokushin). But if I did plan on entering a Kyokushin Tournament, I'd contact that organiser to get their opinion on what they want me to do. As it is the fair and right thing to do but also i'd be tellinng them that Yes i am a 2nd Dan in Goju but a White Belt in Kyokushin and inexperienced inn their style of Kumite. 

 

16 hours ago, KarateKen said:

What would you do if you ran a tournament and discovered that someone had done this?

If I had reasonable belief someone was entering one of my Tournaments as a Lower Grade or was purposefully Sandbagging i would do 1 of 2 things: 

1. If It was BEFORE the start of their event; i'd speak to them and their club to find out their actual rank. If unlisted, I would want verification of their most recent grading. 

2. If they are Sandbagging; which is often a lot easier to recognise as they tend to smash that division easily or have a stupid number of wins in that division (unless they are a BB). I'd speak to their club, and force their hand to promote and i'd adjust them to the appropriate division OR i'd say that due to their performance we're upping them to the next bracket for a challenge. 

16 hours ago, KarateKen said:

I was not running the tournament, but it seemed like nobody has to verify their rank or who they trained under since most of them were locals and all in the same circle.

I never have had to Verify my rank at any tournament, as it seems that they all go off the Honour System. 

But if I wanted to compete at a higher level (eg State Championships); i would need to provide a recognised club. Even my coach if he was to attend needs to be an accredited coach. 

However Karate Australia has recently changed their system, where you can register directly with them and have your insurance covered by them. But you do need to put in your current rank and who it was awarded by and when. 

 

[bushido_man96]

I've seen something similar to this.  A guy that was in our TKD college credit class actually had quite a bit of experience in Olympic style TKD, and was from Greece.  He was very quick, a good sparrer as far as the Olympic rules went.  I don't recall exactly, but if he wasn't a black belt he was a very high colored belt rank.  But, our TKD organization uses the Chang Hon forms, and he had to learn them, so his rank was dropped to white belt (he did skip some ranks as he went along in the colored belts).  He competed a few times at our national tournament and some others we went to.  So he was usually sparring below his actual experience level, and shockingly, he won.

I also had to start over as a white belt in this organization.  I was a 2nd dan in my prior organization.  I never competed as a colored belt rank in my current organization, as I thought it would be disingenuous to do so.  Once I got to black belt, I did compete.

The scenario you mention, if I was running a tournament and found out afterwards, I'd make a call and let them know they were not welcome back to my tournament.

[Zaine]

I take an active part in a local tournament circuit. When I started attending that circuit, I was either a 4th or 3rd kyu. I went as a black belt, because that was the highest rank I had attained. It didn't matter to me that I wasn't a black belt with the current school. I had attained a black belt in my first school. For me, there was of course the ethics of competing at a lower tier. It's unfair to the other competitors who trained very hard to compete. More than that, though, was that I had no desire to compare my skills to lower ranks. Playing a video game using cheat codes isn't nearly as fun as playing it as intended. Similarly, I want real stakes. I want to be able to lose. I want to be up against people who are not only at my skill level, but above. I want to learn. I can't do that sweeping the green belt division.

 

Similar to what others have said, if I found out that anyone was lying about their rank to get an easier competition, they would be expressly forbidden to coming to any more tournaments. 

[Montana]

I saw this once at a tournament I was judging at. One of my fellow judges pointed out someone to me wearing a mid level colored belt and said "Wasn't that guy wearing a black belt and judging at a tournament last year?"

So we grabbed the tournament promoter and the 3 of us went up to the guy as he waited to compete in kata and asked him. He said "Yes, I'm a black belt in a different style, but I'm a student under this other guy now."

He got booted...

 

[sensei8]

10 hours ago, Montana said:

I saw this once at a tournament I was judging at. One of my fellow judges pointed out someone to me wearing a mid level colored belt and said "Wasn't that guy wearing a black belt and judging at a tournament last year?"

So we grabbed the tournament promoter and the 3 of us went up to the guy as he waited to compete in kata and asked him. He said "Yes, I'm a black belt in a different style, but I'm a student under this other guy now."

He got booted...

 

Absolutely!! I would’ve also banned him from said tournament that he tried to cheat.

Earned a black belt, enter said tournament as a black belt. Anything else is cheating all across the board!! 

Cheating?!? Yes!! Why?!?

Anyone who’s earned a black belt and enters a MA tournament in any other division other than black belt is cheating the under black belt competitors as well as the hosting tournament by cheating all concerned.

 

 

[KarateKen]

Hmmm I never thought about it like this.  If a student has a black belt in Judo and a green belt in TKD, and is competing in a TKD tournament, what color belt should the student be wearing? 

[sensei8]

30 minutes ago, KarateKen said:

Hmmm I never thought about it like this.  If a student has a black belt in Judo and a green belt in TKD, and is competing in a TKD tournament, what color belt should the student be wearing? 

Seeing that it’s a TKD tournament, and that student has a green belt in TKD, I’d say that that student should wear a green belt, but at the same time, that student should inform the Arbitrator that they have a black belt in Judo, for integrity sake, and allow the Arbitrator to make the proper decision.

[DarthPenguin]

9 hours ago, sensei8 said:

Seeing that it’s a TKD tournament, and that student has a green belt in TKD, I’d say that that student should wear a green belt, but at the same time, that student should inform the Arbitrator that they have a black belt in Judo, for integrity sake, and allow the Arbitrator to make the proper decision.

Not quite sure how the black belt in judo would have any impact on TKD tbh (other that maybe comfort in a competitive setting) so don't see why it would need to be disclosed.

I have always liked the BJJ way of dealing with other grappling arts tbh: it is convention over here that if someone is judo BB and enters a BJJ tournament they enter as a Blue Belt as a minimum due to experience. Karate, kickboxing etc. grades don't matter as it is a totally different fighting style.

I try to do the same when it is a related style: when i came back to karate a couple of years ago i told the instructors my prior experiences in other styles and whenever i was sparring with someone new i would let them know (often the instructor did too) that i had prior experience in other striking styles (including karate) and whilst i was wearing a white or low kyu belt they could spar harder. I did the same at my judo club before any newaza. But didn't bother mentioning any striking experience as it didn't seem relevant.

For me the rule of thumb would be: is the competition using a similar skillset to one you have acquired elsewhere and have been assessed to a higher level of competency that in the style you are competing in? If yes then needs declared to the comp organisers and let them decide how to deal with it. If no then it's irrelevant and if in doubt then check.