No bunkai until shodan?

[Spartacus Maximus]

Thinking back on past experiences, bunkai applications and practice was reserved for shodan and higher. This resulted in people reaching shodan with no idea of the purpose, meaning and use of kata. Much like learning swimming step by step, yet not knowing/understanding that it is meant to be done in water and never actually going in water. 

Never mind the frustration for students, it does not make for a very interesting or effective way to teach. When and why did this become the norm?

This is in sharp contrast to personal experience where Okinawan and Japanese instructors would teach the meaning and application step by step for each part of kata from the very beginning. 

[bushido_man96]

I think bunkai came to used as a retention tool to keep students interested in what lay beyond the black belt level.  I agree with you, it's a terrible idea, and a disservice to students that are wanting to learn self-defense sooner rather than later.

[sensei8]

I’m a firm believer that Kata without bunkai is nothing more than an empty dance; an exercise of ineffectiveness.

[Nidan Melbourne]

We teach the Kata first, Bunkai later type of approach. 

Do we leave it till Shodan? Not exactly. 

Our Juniors it is introduced at Shodan-Ho. Our Seniors at 5th Kyu. 

We trialled it a few times over the years of various methods. But found that the kids were struggling to add it to their repertoire at the same time as learning the Kata. 

But we teach introduce the idea of it at around the same time. 

Just like school, we learn what's relevant to their age and skill. Look at a little prep student (5/6 years old) vs. A Year 12/13 student (18 years). 

You wouldn't ask a little 6 year to write a 8 page analysis of the book 1984. But you would expect something from a 17/18 year old. 

You would get vastly different responses, let alone understanding of what is even going on. 

Kids have enough stuff on their plates already. Even if they are little sponges and are able to learn things quickly (sometimes). 

Same with Bunkai. 

[sensei8]

In Shindokan, even the most basic of kata bunkai is taught at all ranks; age isn’t an exception. 

[Nidan Melbourne]

19 hours ago, sensei8 said:

In Shindokan, even the most basic of kata bunkai is taught at all ranks; age isn’t an exception. 

Do you teach it at the same rank or generally within' a few ranks of them first learning it? 

When I teach kata, I mix it up with the juniors where I introduce applications and why the kata is the way it is. But at the same time, that there is more than 1 application/interpretation to the moves. 

We have the Taikyoku Kata first, so we don't have a formal bunkai for them. But I encourage the students to find uses for them. 

[Wastelander]

It is my understanding that kata oyo, and the bunkai process by which you derive them, weren't taught all that much by Funakoshi Gichin, and which were almost entirely left behind by Funakoshi Gichin's son and his contemporaries, so that by the end of WW2 pretty much everyone doing Shotokan wasn't learning oyo or bunkai. After WW2, the Okinawans needed to rebuild, and teaching karate to the soldiers stationed there was one way to get the money for that, but many of those soldiers had friends stationed on mainland Japan learning Shotokan, and so that's the sort of karate they wanted to learn. At least some of the Okinawan instructors during that era stopped teaching kata application because their students simply weren't interested in it. They also tended to issue those soldiers yudansha grades between 1st and 3rd Dan during their tours of duty, with the expectation they would come back to Okinawa to continue their education, and that's probably where the "bunkai is for black belts" thing really came about. Most likely, those soldiers just didn't learn kata application while stationed on Okinawa, and only picked it up later, and so they assumed it was black belt material, or they made their students wait until black belt to learn it so they could market it as some sort of "secret knowledge."

Now, personally, I think this is a terrible approach, even as an attempt at retaining students. We all know that most people who train in martial arts who make it past the first year will still end up quitting when they earn their black belt, and that happens regardless of where you stick the "secret knowledge" of your curriculum. All this ends up doing is producing a bunch of people who trained in karate long enough to earn a black belt who have no idea how to actually use the classical material of the art, which makes karate look watered down, outdated, and ineffective. On top of that, it is cheating the individual students out of valuable skills for self-defense! My late Sensei taught application right along side the kata, and I do so, as well. This has left just about every student we've ever had with not only a better understanding of the art, but more appreciation for it, and an awareness that there is more to karate than point fighting tournaments and Kyokushin.

[sensei8]

4 hours ago, Nidan Melbourne said:

Do you teach it at the same rank or generally within' a few ranks of them first learning it? 

When I teach kata, I mix it up with the juniors where I introduce applications and why the kata is the way it is. But at the same time, that there is more than 1 application/interpretation to the moves. 

We have the Taikyoku Kata first, so we don't have a formal bunkai for them. But I encourage the students to find uses for them. 

Please clarify your question??

From day one, kata bunkai as well as grappling are taught to Shindokan students without exceptions.

There’s no such thing as waiting until higher kyu ranks are earned in Shindokan. Most assuredly, kata bunkai, and the like, and grappling aren’t taught until Shodan. 

As a JJB for 5 long years, I can’t imagine not learning/training kata bunkai and grappling until I earned Shodan; JJB students are forbidden from earning Shodan until they reach 18 years of age.

 

 

[Nidan Melbourne]

@sensei8 you understood my (dodgy) question. Where you said that its taught from day 1. 

We introduced grappling to students earlier; but we have only a handful of instructors who have experience with groundwork. 

But I have the a lot of experience with sweeps, throws and takedowns. Along with teaching them to different ages.