Kata Questions

[Revario]

Hello to all, introduction is brief, text and questions will be long. I have a few. 

 

Here we go, what makes a Kata beginner level or advanced level? With that being said, some schools (styles) will teach Sanchin as the first Kata. In our school Seisan is the first. Is it related to how one see the importance of a specific Kata and place it first? 

Is it the technical difficulty in its performance? Is it the principles that it teaches that are advanced as they would have been learned in other Kata or material prior? Is it the ease to use the movements of the Kata in real application (not the performative Bunkai, stress drilled Bunkai only).

Speaking of Seisan, our school (Chito Ryu) does it in a variation that is not seen elsewhere. It is said that Goju and Chito Ryu are similar in that both share same teacher (Aragaki Seisho), would we be correct to assume each student chose the Kata that resonated the most with them to be the main one and first taught in that style? In the same vein, would it not be correct to practice Seisan in the Sanchin position as it encourages close combat and Sanchin dachi is more comfortable for closer combat? 

And last but not least, seems many Masters of the old, created their own Kata. Based on Your experience, knowledge and combat skills, which Kata that presently exist would be the closest to the way you truly approach Karate? 

 

 

[Wastelander]

21 hours ago, Revario said:

Here we go, what makes a Kata beginner level or advanced level? With that being said, some schools (styles) will teach Sanchin as the first Kata. In our school Seisan is the first. Is it related to how one see the importance of a specific Kata and place it first? 

Is it the technical difficulty in its performance? Is it the principles that it teaches that are advanced as they would have been learned in other Kata or material prior? Is it the ease to use the movements of the Kata in real application (not the performative Bunkai, stress drilled Bunkai only).

Speaking of Seisan, our school (Chito Ryu) does it in a variation that is not seen elsewhere. It is said that Goju and Chito Ryu are similar in that both share same teacher (Aragaki Seisho), would we be correct to assume each student chose the Kata that resonated the most with them to be the main one and first taught in that style? In the same vein, would it not be correct to practice Seisan in the Sanchin position as it encourages close combat and Sanchin dachi is more comfortable for closer combat? 

And last but not least, seems many Masters of the old, created their own Kata. Based on Your experience, knowledge and combat skills, which Kata that presently exist would be the closest to the way you truly approach Karate? 

In my opinion, there really isn't such a thing as "advanced kata," per se. I do think there are some kata which are very obviously designed for beginners, such as Chibana's Kihongata, or the Taikyouku series, which are short, simple, and generally contain the most basic of lessons. That said, those can still be done in an advanced way, turning them into "advanced kata." Pretty much all the other kata are going to be subjective as to what level they are, because different kata are easier or harder for different people on a case-by-case basis, and the way the instructor teaches them also makes a difference. Some people consider Naihanchi to be black belt material, for example, while they tend to be the first real kata that you learn in Shorin-Ryu, but the versions of the kata are very similar, so there isn't an actual concrete reason for Naihanchi to be "advanced kata" for some and "beginner kata" for others. If the instructor struggles, themselves, with correctly performing the kata and learning the applications, they are more likely to present it as "advanced" material, and if they find it easy and understand the applications, they're more likely to present it as "beginner" material. Also, the more nuance they teach for the kata, the more "advanced" it can be. If everything in kata is done the same basic way as all the other kata and drills you've learned before, it's probably "beginner" material, but if there are subtle shifts in the footwork/stances, different movement patterns connecting familiar postures, or fine details with regard to hand movements that are unique to the kata, it's more likely to be considered "advanced." There is also, as you allude to, a tradition factor involved, because if someone is taught a particular kata as a beginner, they are more likely to consider it a "beginner kata," and the same goes for "advanced kata." That's why it is important to be critical of tradition, and not just repeat it thoughtlessly.

I realize this may not be too terribly helpful, but that's just my view on it. The kata are as "advanced" as you make them, basically.

To answer your final question, I would say that Naihanchi still represents my approach the most, but I'm not averse to the creation of new kata, provided they are created with the right intentions and understanding. I have created kata myself, as well as guided others through the process, and have found it to be a great way to get a new perspective on the potential application of kata, as a whole, although I have never gone on to teach any of the kata we created. I've considered developing one to teach, as of late, though.

[Nidan Melbourne]

Thank for the post @Revario!  

Great questions! 

21 hours ago, Revario said:

Here we go, what makes a Kata beginner level or advanced level?

To me; a "Beginner" Level Kata is one that has maybe 1 or 2 concepts in them for students to understand or to be introduced to. 

For instance; Taikyoku Jodan (The first Kata in Goju-Kai if used) introduces basic manouevring from Sanchin Dachi to Zenkutsu Dachi and turns (180 + 90 degrees). 

 

But to be fair there would be some Intermediate Levels also which lays somewhere in between Beginner and Advanced. However, the ones I mention here are often the first taught at many Goju-Ryu Dojo. So Gekesai Dai Ichi and Ni along with Saifa would be my Intermediate forms. 

 

"Advanced" Level same idea as the Beginner Level; however contains more concepts. 

So for the Goju-Kai Syllabus; I'd say Seeiunchin or Sanseru would be the start of the Advanced Forms. 

 

However,  it can be a tad subjective because each club may approach kata difficulty differently. Like I have the Gekesai as Intermediate, yet others it would be a Beginner level. 

Yet whats funny, is when I have students take a step back and view the kata as a whole then go to break it down. Because to me even the Beginner Kata can provide you with tid bits that can become quite practical for Self-Defence Routines. 

21 hours ago, Revario said:

Is it related to how one see the importance of a specific Kata and place it first? 

There has been some discussion around a specific kata being the Styles "Signature" Kata. Sanchin being Goju's Signature Kata. 

When I discuss it with other Black Belts; often who are far more experienced than myself. A common theme comes up that learning it is delayed or revealed when the student is ready to learn it.  

If the Styles "Founder" placed importance in one kata, then in my mind that kata must (in a way) contain the knowledge that makes their style. Which when I look at Goju-Ryu (even my Goju-Kai), Sanchin blossoms into a large foundation of knowledge that the techniques taught can easily be performed there. 

21 hours ago, Revario said:

And last but not least, seems many Masters of the old, created their own Kata. Based on Your experience, knowledge and combat skills, which Kata that presently exist would be the closest to the way you truly approach Karate? 

The masters when they were creating their kata, would have to contain a piece of knowledge to help students. 

At the moment, I feel the closest to either Gekesai Dai Ich or Seisan. 

Gekesai for its simplicity but also in its viciousness and straight up slapping the person (IYKYK). 

Seisan for all those sweeps that are included in several different forms. 

 

[sensei8]

22 hours ago, Revario said:

Here we go, what makes a Kata beginner level or advanced level?

Thus far, you’ve received solid feedback to your OP question. Instead of providing more detailed information/explanatios to your enquirer, please allow me a more simplified answer…

Whether a kata is or isn’t either “beginner” or “advanced”…one’s Governing Body makes that decision.

[KarateKen]

3 hours ago, sensei8 said:

Thus far, you’ve received solid feedback to your OP question. Instead of providing more detailed information/explanatios to your enquirer, please allow me a more simplified answer…

Whether a kata is or isn’t either “beginner” or “advanced”…one’s Governing Body makes that decision.

Pretty much what I was thinking.  It depends on the school and the individual.

When I was a purple belt, our assistant instructor told a story about how he was learning a new technique and kept getting one of the basics wrong, and the head sensei, a seventh degree, called them "beginners."  I remember thinking wow, I can get to black belt in a few years and finally I will finally reach beginner stage! 

[Nidan Melbourne]

8 hours ago, sensei8 said:

Thus far, you’ve received solid feedback to your OP question. Instead of providing more detailed information/explanatios to your enquirer, please allow me a more simplified answer…

Whether a kata is or isn’t either “beginner” or “advanced”…one’s Governing Body makes that decision.

Ergo Sensei8 is an Advanced Form (Life Form that is hehehe).

I am a Beginner Form (relatively) hahaha