Proposal: bareknuckle, full-contact Karate with no kicks, just body punches and nothing else.

[Zayd_Nofal]

20 hours ago, Nidan Melbourne said:

To be honest with you, I haven't met anyone (In Person) who teaches or has students to perform or learn "Complicated" Self-Defence Routines or Techniques. 

When I was a 1st Kyu; I had to create 10 Self Defence Routines from Saifa Kata. Every Instructor I had at the time reminded me of the KISS Principle, which is simple enough to remember but more importantly easy to perform on all different people. 

Even now as a 2nd Dan, I am dissecting Seisan Kata (Goju-Ryu Version) the longest routine I have is reacting to multiple attacks from a single attacker. In which it is probably a max of 10 odd techniques/movements. 

But I have seen my fair share of "Complicated" Techniques online, none of which I will share here. Because I don't want to disrespect those doing the work, and also because I haven't trained there to get the proper explanation as to the how and why. 

Contentious. 

Physiologically, you can deliver Full-Power Strikes but there is a limit to how much people to can deliver before lactate builds up. Thats why you often see UFC Fighters shaking their arms onces they disengage. As they are trying to get the lactate and other chemicals that build-up out of their arms. 

Everyone has a limit of full-power techniques they can deliver before they need to rest and recover. Thats why when your pushing yourself hard, you get that "burn".  

Exactly, regardless of the divisions available; I'm always in the heavier division due to my current weight. 

Yes, I might get outmanouvred by lighter opponents but at the same hand having fought heaver opponents for the last few years has taught me how to hit appropriately against a bigger person.

I don't want to hurt anyone in competition due to them being 100kg lighter than me. 

 

I disagree with the point about lactate.

I find it easy to punch a bag repeatedly for a minute or so. I train endurance by doing continuous punches with 6kg weights. My preferred strategy in sparring is get as close as possible and deliver as many punches as I can, all while maintaining a low center of gravity so I don't get swept. So I basically just train for this and it works good.

I guess just do more pushups and lactate won't be an issue?

Edited April 19 by Zayd_Nofal

[KarateKen]

OK...but what if you get attacked from behind and someone has you in a choke hold or a bear hug? If all you know is body punches, you are going to be defenseless. 

[Zayd_Nofal]

23 hours ago, KarateKen said:

OK...but what if you get attacked from behind and someone has you in a choke hold or a bear hug? If all you know is body punches, you are going to be defenseless. 

Don't live in bad areas and nobody will do this.

Edited April 20 by Zayd_Nofal

[sensei8]

12 hours ago, Zayd_Nofal said:

Don't live in America and nobody will do this.

Quite presumptuous that nobody will do as KarateKen has suggested. One never knows what might or might not happen. I’d rather know how than not know, just in case.

Edited April 20 by sensei8

[Nidan Melbourne]

19 hours ago, KarateKen said:

OK...but what if you get attacked from behind and someone has you in a choke hold or a bear hug? If all you know is body punches, you are going to be defenseless. 

 

12 hours ago, Zayd_Nofal said:

Don't live in America and nobody will do this.

 Adding both qoutes here so others know what I'm referring to. 

I have actually been attacked from behind several times. And one of those times was from a bear hug. Thankfully I am an oddball as a student and instructor, so it is something that I teach students to work through so they know what to do.

And I live in Australia! 

As Bearhugs for adults may not be a common attack, but for kids/teens it is a very real risk of happening. 

So Karateken has a point, where body punches as your only tool is redundant. This is where a lot of clubs I've noticed at least, don't exactly give students the tools to work with. 

But just reading that post from Karateken reminds me of my time at High School, where that was a common thing for some bullying. 

WHen you lose the ability to use your arms to their fullest; you realise what tools you do have despite the amount of panic that may be going on. 

 

[Zayd_Nofal]

3 hours ago, Nidan Melbourne said:

 

 Adding both qoutes here so others know what I'm referring to. 

I have actually been attacked from behind several times. And one of those times was from a bear hug. Thankfully I am an oddball as a student and instructor, so it is something that I teach students to work through so they know what to do.

And I live in Australia! 

As Bearhugs for adults may not be a common attack, but for kids/teens it is a very real risk of happening. 

So Karateken has a point, where body punches as your only tool is redundant. This is where a lot of clubs I've noticed at least, don't exactly give students the tools to work with. 

But just reading that post from Karateken reminds me of my time at High School, where that was a common thing for some bullying. 

WHen you lose the ability to use your arms to their fullest; you realise what tools you do have despite the amount of panic that may be going on. 

 

Good punch = no need for grapple.

Edited April 20 by Zayd_Nofal

[crash]

2 hours ago, Zayd_Nofal said:

Good punch = no need for grapple.

i think EVERY MMA fighter will disagree with this. the truth of the matter is that it would be highly accurate to bet every real fight will go to the ground...... knock outs arent as easy as most people think and fighting even an unexperienced fighter or someone trying to actually harm you isnt as technical or easy as just hitting them in the right spot. people move and turn, makes it a little different than hitting a bag or practicing partner..... just have someone blind rush you, and go low as in a tackle and evaluate from there......full speed and with intent is a game changer

[Wastelander]

On 4/17/2025 at 10:01 PM, Zayd_Nofal said:

I love Kyokushin specifically because it isn't traditional Karate.

Complicated self defense techniques don't work. Continuous full-power strikes work.

I would agree that complicated self-defense techniques are generally a bad idea, but it's pretty rare that I come across anyone in the practical karate sphere who teaches self-defense techniques that I would consider complicated. Certainly nothing more complicated than you'd find in any other martial art or combat sport, and some pretty complex things can be pulled off, even in high level competitions, by people who have trained appropriately.

I would also add that the existence of Kyokushin's knockdown sparring method actually runs counter to your argument about continuous full-power strikes. Yes, they can wear down an opponent over time, but I've seen MANY Kyokushin matches where the continuous shots to the body didn't amount to anything. Full-power strikes to vulnerable targets work, but you're going to get WAY more mileage out of striking the neck and head than you are the body.

On 4/19/2025 at 2:30 PM, KarateKen said:

OK...but what if you get attacked from behind and someone has you in a choke hold or a bear hug? If all you know is body punches, you are going to be defenseless. 

23 hours ago, Zayd_Nofal said:

Don't live in bad areas and nobody will do this.

I know that this originally said "Don't live in America," rather than "bad areas," but the fact of the matter is that your location has very little to do with the types of attacks you are likely to have to deal with in a self-defense situation, because human violence tends to be gendered and age-determinate, but otherwise quite consistent. Chokeholds and bear hugs are common attacks against children and women, especially, so maybe YOU don't need to worry about it all that much, but plenty of people do. Plus, there is simply no guarantee that a statistical anomaly won't happen to you, and you get put in a chokehold or bear hug. You don't get to choose what the attacker does.

Plus, the "if you don't live in bad areas" argument can be made about self-defense as a whole, as avoiding high risk areas lowers your risk in general, but doesn't have any impact on the TYPE of attack you're likely to face. Making this argument basically weakens your points about training for self-defense, because if you "don't live in bad areas," your chances of even needing to punch someone go down just as much as your chances of needing to grapple someone.

8 hours ago, Zayd_Nofal said:

Good punch = no need for grapple.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this is very demonstrably false. A good punch only eliminates the need to be able to grapple if you drop the opponent with one shot before they get their hands on you. One-shot KOs against someone expecting violence (which someone attacking you will be) are rare, one-shot body KOs are even less likely, and self-defense situations don't always happen with you knowing where the attacker is and that they are going to attack you. Self-defense isn't a striking duel, like Kyokushin is. If someone attacks you, they don't have any reason to stand and bang, especially if they have any idea how to grapple someone, even without real training, and if you hit them hard, chances are they will not agree to your terms for the fight and let you keep hitting them.

You wouldn't go into an MMA match as a pure striker and expect your opponent to have a kickboxing match with you, right? Same goes for self-defense. If both grappling and striking are possible, you NEED to be competent with both in order to be effective.

[Zayd_Nofal]

7 hours ago, crash said:

i think EVERY MMA fighter will disagree with this. the truth of the matter is that it would be highly accurate to bet every real fight will go to the ground...... knock outs arent as easy as most people think and fighting even an unexperienced fighter or someone trying to actually harm you isnt as technical or easy as just hitting them in the right spot. people move and turn, makes it a little different than hitting a bag or practicing partner..... just have someone blind rush you, and go low as in a tackle and evaluate from there......full speed and with intent is a game changer

Then every MMA fighter does not have good punch.

 

1 hour ago, Wastelander said:

I would agree that complicated self-defense techniques are generally a bad idea, but it's pretty rare that I come across anyone in the practical karate sphere who teaches self-defense techniques that I would consider complicated.

Have you ever been to a school that advertises "self defense"?

[DarthPenguin]

On 4/22/2025 at 6:55 AM, Zayd_Nofal said:

Not true. He was punched by surprise and did not have the opportunity to contract his abdominals and breathe out properly. In fact, the puncher remarked that subsequent punches were met by rock-hard abdominals as the magician was now expecting it. Case in point: if someone doesn't expect a body punch, it will be more effective.

Surely that is the same for any attack though : if you are unprepared the consequences will be worse.

Another point i would make is that often people call out exceptions to a general rule to demonstrate they are outliers / unusual. There are a few fighters i can think of who were known for body level strikes: Ricky Hatton and Michael Nunn are two boxers i immediately think of when i think of a body attack; Bas Rutten and Giga Chikadze for mma. They stand out as they were unusual (to my eyes) for their ability to finish fights with body strikes.

It is a common statement that pressure testing exposes flaws and brings out the best aspects of things too: if body punching was so much more effective than anything else then professional fighters whose living (and health!) literally depends on being able to damage their opponents as much as possible whilst taking minimum impacts would focus on it a lot more. How many MMA fighters do you see try to win a fight with mainly a body attack? They use body strikes to wear out their opponent and vary their targets to be less predictable. If they could finish fights quicker, with less damage and could then fight again faster and get paid more often they would definitely go to the body all the time if that would help them.