Proposal: bareknuckle, full-contact Karate with no kicks, just body punches and nothing else.

[Zayd_Nofal]

Hello. I am a 1st Dan in Shotokan Karate, 2nd gup in Tang Soo Do, and 5th gup in Taekwondo. I also have 1 year of boxing experience and a few months of BJJ experience. I moved cities half a year ago, at which point I switched to Kyokushin. I felt that Shotokan's learning curve was way too difficult and that it would take too long to make me a "good" fighter with it. Though it is good at training distance control and timing, I think that its bladed stance, high center of gravity, lack of rotational punches in competition, point sparring focus, and poor conditioning are all counterintuitive. To be blunt, unless we're talking about top-level WKF and JKA athletes, I think Shotokan is strategically ineffective.

Most importantly, however, I do not like the presence of protective gear. It feels weird, it keeps coming off, its expensive, and it takes too long to put on. This is why I love Kyokushin, as it is bareknuckle. The problem with Kyokushin, however, is that, despite the lack of face punches, there is a high potential for injury, and it lies entirely in its kicks. Concussions, broken ribs, and bruised thighs are all common in Kyokushin competition, and even dojo sparring sometimes leaves people limping the next day. Another thing to keep in mind is that Kyokushin does often require protective gear for less experienced students, slightly detracting from its realism. Though I love Kyokushin and will continue practicing it as my main style, I will most likely never teach it, with the main reason being the injury risk to my students and the financial burden of protective gear, which I have always hated. Another reason, however, is that Kyokushin is not exactly "easy" to teach, and transmitting it requires both a good instructor and an eager, intelligent set of students to truly reap its benefits.

What many people do not know is that Kyokushin, despite being full-contact, does not always mean full-intensity in the dojo, due to the injury risk. I have read much about arts such as wrestling and BJJ, and its fighters are said to be formidable due to the simple fact that they can go 100% on a regular basis with very low injury risk. By the time a wrestler or BJJ practitioner has had a few competitions, they have more actual fighting mileage than most striking practitioners, in terms of full-intensity fighting.

 

At some point, I might want to teach Karate to people. But I do not want to teach Shotokan as it is difficult and ineffective. I also do not want to teach Kyokushin as it is injurious. I do not want any gear to be involved, I want it to be full contact, and I want it to be safe. I want to teach a far more simple version of what I have learned across all martial arts, while still retaining the effectiveness of full-contact fighting.

 

I hereby propose something wild: a style of Karate where the sparring is bareknuckle, full contact, and full-intensity...but with only body punches. No kicks, knees, throws, or anything else. Just all-out bareknuckle boxing to the body and that's it. Here is my rationale for this:
-Bareknuckle fighting to the body will achieve the same level of abdominal conditioning and psychological fortitude that Kyokushin fighting will, but with a much lower injury risk. In fact, a black belt in this proposed style would hypothetically have superb conditioning of the midsection and most likely very powerful punches.
-Due to the fact that one can only punch to the body, they are able to fight with full-intensity on a regular basis without much injury, getting a lot of actual fighting mileage in the process.
-Protective gear is not required at all, given the fact that kicks and face punches are completely absent. Developing abdominal resistance against punches is also a quick process and is highly unlikely to result in injury.
-It is extremely easy to teach. Just tell people "punch each other but only to the body" and most people will get it. Even a caveman could understand this concept.
-It is extremely easy to learn. The only necessary technical knowledge is proper punching form, abdominal contraction, and basic footwork.
-Proper fighting techniques such as kicks, face punches, slipping, etc can still be separately taught outside of sparring in a more controlled manner, so as to actually teach students more practical methods and teach them good fighting habits.
-If a student wishes to transition to a proper fighting art, they will have a very stable physical and psychological base for being a fighter. In fact, they can easily cross-train this style of fighting with any other art and still benefit from it.
-The traditional side of Karate still has a place in the form of kata, especially Sanchin, whose fundamentals translate well to the throwing and reception of punches.
-This doesn't even have to be a style of Karate; this type of fighting can easily be worked into any martial or fighting art without interfering with its curriculum. You can instantly integrate "Chudan Seiken Kumite" (I haven't thought of a good name yet) into any McDojo in the world and turn it into a somewhat respectable martial arts venue.

 

Would a style of Karate like this be effective? Would it be feasible to teach? I would love any insight.

[sensei8]

Welcome to KF, Zayd_Nofal; glad that you’re here!!

The effectiveness of any MA style is the responsibility of its practitioners. If the practitioner isn’t mature in its techniques, then the practitioner is ineffective, and not the style. Reason for a practitioner to not be mature in their technique is fear.

What you propose might be feasible but then again, it might not be. Full control to the body with all of the force that one can muster can lead to injuries, and some injuries can be quite damaging, with the possibility that said full contact to the body might lead to a fatal injury.

After all, the human body can only take so much, and the MA is designed to stop an attack, therefore, injure said attacker, if necessary. The MA is not a set of patty-cake techniques.

I can only assume that the cost of insurance for a MA school as you propose would be quite expensive. If one was to teach what you propose with no insurance to protect both the students as well as the school, well, that would be very irresponsible of the CI/school.

Imho.

[crash]

i think what you are proposing is pretty much already covered in every boxing gym across the country. like sensei8 stated above, to go full on contact your insurance would be astronomical, not to mention student retention would probably be almost impossible, no one wants to (or could) go all  out on a daily/weekly basis....as far as integrating it into other styles, its already there... every style covers body work / body punches from the beginning. from how to make a fist to "middle punches"...heavy bag work simulates a body and develops strength without the risk of undo injury. what you envision is bare knuckle boxing without head strikes, i really dont see a purpose for this. i could be wrong but for myself there are just more alternatives and styles that would cover more and be more practical.

[Wastelander]

First of all, welcome to the forum! You sure are coming out swinging with this subject!

What you are proposing is essentially pre-Queensbury bareknuckle boxing, with the slight modification of not allowing punches to the head instead of it simply being uncommon due to the danger of injury. That's fine, but it's not karate. The way I see it, Shotokan and Kyokushin both significantly diminished the effective curriculum of karate by focusing almost exclusively on kicking and punching in their sparring, to begin with. You are then proposing to take one of those arts and strip it down even more so that it is just punching the body. At that point, you're just doing bareknuckle boxing. Everything that makes it karate is gone. You essentially admit that you understand this when you point out that it isn't a style of karate, and that it can be slapped onto any curriculum.

I am in no way trying to offend you when I say this, but it sounds, to me, as if you DON'T actually want to train in or teach karate. Nothing in your post suggests, to me, that you actually value the art, as it is. You just value full-contact fighting, and you don't like how people are doing it. I'm afraid I will have to contradict your position on protective gear and the value of body-only sparring, as well. The fact of the matter is that protective gear allows for more consistent sparring without injury, at all levels of contact, whether you like it or not, and sparring without punches to the head develops very bad habits that will carry over into every form of fighting you try to do. As others have already mentioned, you will also have a hard time dealing with insurance as a full-contact school that uses no protective gear. I just don't see enough value in this methodology to outweigh the issues, and I certainly don't see why it should be attached to karate, at all.

[KarateKen]

14 hours ago, Zayd_Nofal said:

-It is extremely easy to teach. Just tell people "punch each other but only to the body" and most people will get it. Even a caveman could understand this concept.

As a caveman I take offense. 

[Zayd_Nofal]

9 hours ago, Wastelander said:

First of all, welcome to the forum! You sure are coming out swinging with this subject!

What you are proposing is essentially pre-Queensbury bareknuckle boxing, with the slight modification of not allowing punches to the head instead of it simply being uncommon due to the danger of injury. That's fine, but it's not karate. The way I see it, Shotokan and Kyokushin both significantly diminished the effective curriculum of karate by focusing almost exclusively on kicking and punching in their sparring, to begin with. You are then proposing to take one of those arts and strip it down even more so that it is just punching the body. At that point, you're just doing bareknuckle boxing. Everything that makes it karate is gone. You essentially admit that you understand this when you point out that it isn't a style of karate, and that it can be slapped onto any curriculum.

I am in no way trying to offend you when I say this, but it sounds, to me, as if you DON'T actually want to train in or teach karate. Nothing in your post suggests, to me, that you actually value the art, as it is. You just value full-contact fighting, and you don't like how people are doing it. I'm afraid I will have to contradict your position on protective gear and the value of body-only sparring, as well. The fact of the matter is that protective gear allows for more consistent sparring without injury, at all levels of contact, whether you like it or not, and sparring without punches to the head develops very bad habits that will carry over into every form of fighting you try to do. As others have already mentioned, you will also have a hard time dealing with insurance as a full-contact school that uses no protective gear. I just don't see enough value in this methodology to outweigh the issues, and I certainly don't see why it should be attached to karate, at all.

Hello, Wastelander! I will admit that my idea is unorthodox, and I do appreciate the constructive thoughts you have given me. I also admit that I am a comparative novice to many people here, only having studied marital arts for 9 years, so I like all the advice I can take.

There is one thing that I have been told about Karate as it appeared pre-Shotokan. It is sometimes said that during this time period (pre-1920s), fist fighting was far more common than it is today, and thereby a lot more people already knew how to fight by default. Traditional styles of Karate are said to therefore be supplementary training for "the guy who can already fight." Nowadays, however, due to life generally being more peaceful and controlled, it is said that less people know how to truly fight, making traditional Karate techniques far less effective.

Going along with this narrative, I have to ask: could this sparring format I propose simply be a way of teaching students the bare instinct of how to "fight", with more traditional Karate techniques being taught alongside it as the supplementary knowledge they supposedly were originally? In other words, assuming insurance was not an issue, is this limited bareknuckle sparring format a good way to at least psychologically condition students to the act of fighting, so that they will be more mentally prepared to use their traditional Karate techniques if need be?

 

Quote

As a caveman I take offense. 

Unga bunga. 

Edited April 10 by Zayd_Nofal

[Nidan Melbourne]

Aaaaaaaand this is when I jump in; I understand your frustrations around some rigidity or how some styles of karate (or other arts) fight in the dojo for Health and Safety Reasons. 

This is where as a Shodan; you should already have an an idea of the WHY around why they may want you to do spar in a certain way. But seems like you haven't broken the rules to find what actually works for you in terms of kumite. 

For instance; I am a 2nd Dan in Goju-Ryu. Do I spar anything like other Goju Practitioners? 

- Absolutely not, I fight somewhere in between a karateka and a boxer. Is it evolving as i learn more? yes it will 

19 hours ago, Zayd_Nofal said:

I felt that Shotokan's learning curve was way too difficult and that it would take too long to make me a "good" fighter with it.

I understand that it may be a high learning curve. but depends on how you train outside of class. 

Although I do question how your teacher explains the concepts and at what rank they do so. By that I mean that I explain say Zenkutsu Dachi and minor details very differently to a 9th Kyu (White Belt) vs. how i explain it to a Shodan. 

Or are you talking about the learning curve once you were promoted to shodan? 

Also a "Good" Fighter is separate to what you may do in the dojo itself. In Tournament Situations; it is very much about experience and how you train and learn. 

However in Self-Defence situations; it is a different situation because everyone reacts differently. But being a "Good" fighter seems like you would seek out fights to prove that your better than someone else. 

 

 From my experience in Cross-Training; I found that Simple is often more effective than something that overloads you with information. So I learn Balintawak Arnis (GM Bobby Toboada started this), where you progressively build up to Level 6 (Completion of the Art/Black Belt Equivalent) then Level 7 (Fully Qualified Instructor). Level 1 you learn the basics, then as you progress up each level you review the prior levels (and demonstrate competency showing you have improved). By the time your doing your Level 7 Examination; your demonstrating Levels 1 - 6 you are a competent person who can/should react at full speed. 

2 hours ago, Zayd_Nofal said:

this limited bareknuckle sparring format a good way to at least psychologically condition students to the act of fighting, so that they will be more mentally prepared to use their traditional Karate techniques if need be?

I understand the want to prepare students psychologically, as to be able to deal with being hit. But things do change quickly when you are punched in the face without gloves. 

Bareknuckle Boxing back in the day, was definitely the norm as that's how a lot of arguments were resolved back well before any of us who are savvy enough to use a computer were born. I know full well my grandfather most likely settled a lot of fights back when he was a young lad before immigrating from the UK to Australia in the 60's. 

Considering how nearly all young men served in some way shape or form in the Armed Forces throughout the world around the 1920's-30's. So Violence was the norm, and being hit the face wasn't nearly as much of an issue as is it is today. Because back then our equivalent of being punched the face back then was being shot and killed. 

 

Like others have said; to have proper full-contact sparring regularly, you either need to have really good insurance OR have students sign waivers not holding the club liable for injuries sustained in the course of their training. 

20 hours ago, Zayd_Nofal said:

Bareknuckle fighting to the body will achieve the same level of abdominal conditioning and psychological fortitude that Kyokushin fighting will, but with a much lower injury risk

From what I've gathered from your post; your looking at doing full contact all the time. But the one thing I have learnt, is that no matter how much you condition your muscles through repeated trauma can cause a lot of issues later on. 

Unfortunately there hasn't been much research the long term damage or health concerns; as not many people are researching Martial Arts in the Health, Exercise or even Sports Disciplines. This is in the form of those of whom have passed away and we see what has occurred to the body after a lifetime of training. 

Now Abdominal training can only go so far for each person, before the damage accrued just leaves the person at a higher risk of trauma as the body wouldn't have the ability to recover. I have some friends that have trained in Kyokushin for a long long time; and they have found that they have had a lot of issues around their internal organs because of the amount of trauma that they had faced during their training. 

But with the amount of training that modern day instructors have, and their ability to help students with post-training recovery which may help with the reduction in long-term complications. And this varies greatly from each Martial Art and how the person trains; of which varies greatly for those who train for Competition vs. those who train for their own enjoyment. 

The Psychological side of things; I won't fully comment on because I am not trained in Psychology. Nor are (I assume) the majority of people who comment here. But Experienced instructors do learn a lot of tools that are psychology based. 

[crash]

16 hours ago, Zayd_Nofal said:

 

Going along with this narrative, I have to ask: could this sparring format I propose simply be a way of teaching students the bare instinct of how to "fight", with more traditional Karate techniques being taught alongside it as the supplementary knowledge they supposedly were originally? In other words, assuming insurance was not an issue, is this limited bareknuckle sparring format a good way to at least psychologically condition students to the act of fighting, so that they will be more mentally prepared to use their traditional Karate techniques if need be?

 

Unga bunga. 

as stated earlier. just learning to fight (with fists) is already available at any boxing gym in any city USA. you learn and condition and when ready step into the ring to spar, just shy of full contact,  sure headgear may be warn, and gloves, but the safety equipment, conditioning / learning along with a waiver is paramount for insurance purposes, and safety reasons in general. as far as incorporating martial arts into the mix, thats been around since the 80's at least, with kickboxing. most trained in a boxing gym. the only addition to boxing was the mandatory 8 kick per round rule....

 you cant just tell people to get in a ring and beat each other to the body, (or anywhere else) without some sort of training and conditioning to work up to that point, regardless of the type of fighting....that is where insurance and medical bills would end the business/gym pretty quickly...what youve described so far sounds more like an underground fight club more than an actual training type club of any sort. not meaning to sound harsh or negative, its just the way it comes across from the description so far.

[DarthPenguin]

Yeah to chime in here too:

I can understand your reasoning for proposing removing safety equipment but what i would say is more people would not say that boxers and thai boxers are weak and unconditioned, or unable to deliver powerful blows, but both of these styles do train with protective equipment. Plus when you train or figh full contact you perform very differently to lesser contact - from personal experience i remember years ago when i trained in a taekwondo offshoot and a much smaller friend of mine was talking nonsense about weight classes not being needed due to superior technique etc. etc. He then proposed we sparred full contact with some gloves and headgear (more like kickboxing). He stopped the round after a few minutes of being hit in the head (i wasn't unpleasant enough to go full power) to complain at me for only throwing straight punches with front or read hand and front kicks to the stomach, since there were so many more techniques and he didn't think i was utilising the style. My response was i can beat you up with almost zero risk to myself at a range you can't hit me at using these three things: why on earth would i use more?

Full contact training is (obviously) extremely valuable but i personally think it, by it's very nature, restricts the techniques you can practice or use either as the technique is too potentially harmful (you won't just snap someones arm) or you rule it out due to riskiness, so some lesser contact can be useful too to build muscle memory for additional techniques.

Only training to the body also means you really only build muscle memory for body level strikes. While you would be practising the other levels and ranges in technique practice you wouldn't have them dialled in as much. It is a problem that some kyokushin fighters find in the transition to mma: they are fantastically skilled and very talented but they have to break the habit or not punching to the face.

I would also agree with @Wastelander that your message seems to read that the thing you dislike about karate is in essence the karate itself! Which is a totally valid viewpoint, since everyone has their own preferences! Not trying to be insulting there! Maybe boxing training but going to a gym renowned for it's body punching would work better for you?

Though your idea does kinda sound like both the "low kick championship" and "power slap" that i have seen online! Maybe it would work as a style similar to that and then the training for it would be an you envisage!

[Zayd_Nofal]

4 hours ago, DarthPenguin said:

your message seems to read that the thing you dislike about karate is in essence the karate itself!

Well then I dislike Karate itself.

Edited Monday at 01:27 PM by Zayd_Nofal