Unruly students/customers in modern era?

[Himokiri Karate]

I have been hearing more and more from my Dojang and the Japanese culture center that offers martial arts and other programs that I participate in about new students acting more like clients that want the whole "the customer is always right!" attitude.

My Dojang is a no nonsense place, I don't even do the belt system since I am a private student but the master mentioned that he is losing students because they want a black belt fast and that they don't like how he does not have a "Black belt club" or that he does not accept money for quicker promotion.


Now its been a while since I posted. Those familiar with me know that I come from a boxing background. This will be my forever martial arts in terms of primary style. But it seems like there is a shift in behavior of students within the martial arts ranking system. People want fast belts, quick promotions and want to be taught that befits their comfort level and if not, they will complain. I remember in the 90s, we never had this behavior. My Japanese language teacher mentioned it seems like a recent thing. Its very luxury fitness type attitude that spills over the martial arts world.

Is this a real thing? Have you encountered it in your community?

[sensei8]

Unfortunately it’s the current rage of the page and has never really lessened. Yes, this has infected the MA schools pretty much in every community that I’ve ever lived in or ever visited.

Nowadays students want a fast food MA across the board. Earning anything in the MA is such a rush, especially from parents. 

Whenever a CI allows the customer is always right mentality to root in the school, the ends not far away. 

The customer is NOT always right because the schools integrity is at stake!! Every student must earn everything and only the CI decides that, and never the student, parents, or the man in the moon.

[Zaine]

This isn't actually a new thing, we just have a little recency bias. I was commiserating with a friend on this exact topic the other day and we, like you, seemed to notice a rise in people not wanting to put in the actual work for a belt. America, and the West in general, is full of consumers. We love our instant gratification. We love our same-day deliveries. However, instructors in the 60s and 70s were complaining about the same thing. I've recently picked up Tales from the Western Generation by Matthew Apsokardu. It's a book that is full of interviews from the people who brought karate from Okinawa to the U.S. in the mid 1900s. In it, multiple sensei detail that they had/have issues with students who wanted status without discipline and time served. I was surprised to find that they had much the same complaints as I did with my friend. I came up in the early 2000s. I got my shodan in 2007/8. Thinking back, I can remember there were a number of people not satisfied with their progress and so they left. Some left for easier programs, others left martial arts altogether. That it seems a more recent phenomenon to us might just be that we're in a position of leadership now, or our relationships with our sensei have become more casual and friendly than they were. We are now more aware of the problem because it effects us in a different way.

So, to answer your question. It is a real thing. There are plenty of people who want to say that they're a black belt but don't want to put in the work. I've certainly encountered it in my community. There will always be people who join who don't intend to play by the rules. We just have to give them the same as everyone else. The long-term students will come.

[KorroddyDude]

The "dojang" and "Japanese" culture thing is throwing me off, but trying to make sense of this is probably besides the point.

This story seems a bit odd.  If something like this was running rampant at your dojang (or dojo, if it's Japanese?  I dunno.  I'll say "club" from here on), then it would be happening everywhere.  There may be students who ask when the next test is, what they have to do, etc.  But I've never seen students who flat out say "Screw the requirements, give me a black belt now."  I'm sure they know they can buy one on Amazon for $15.

Edited Monday at 03:08 PM by KorroddyDude

[sensei8]

Crazy how students want to earn anything and everything without putting in the blood, sweat, and tears that it takes.

Funny how it is that these very same impatient customers don’t demand that of K-12 and higher education institutions…or perhaps they do…but I’m quite sure that their unreasonable requests are meet with stern opposition…as so we should too. 

 

Edited Monday at 04:27 PM by sensei8

[KorroddyDude]

BJJ - it's been growing in popularity for the past 30 years, and still growing.  What is one of its biggest selling points?  The time and work that it takes to get a black belt in it.  Easily at least three times the length and intensity of traditional Japanese and Korean martial arts.  BJJ draws people in, because they feel that the blood, sweat, and tears that it takes to get a black belt in it gives it the most validity.  In other words, people want to feel that they've earned something.

The thought of a karate white belt saying "I don't know the kata that the green belt over there is doing, but give me a black belt right now anyway" is just unimaginable to me.  But I can assure you this: any instructor who gives into such a demand will lose more students than they gain as a result of this.

Edited Monday at 05:59 PM by KorroddyDude

[aurik]

I've run into this a bit with my son.  Our style and organization time-in-grade requirements for every rank, and minimum age for (adult) black belt ranks.  One thing that has frustrated him to a certain degree is that I have progressed significantly faster through the ranks than he has -- mainly because of the minimum age requirements.  I started at our dojo about a year after he did, but he started out as a junior belt (ages 4-6).  When he aged out of that program, I was already several promotions ahead of him in the kyu/dan ranking.  Also, he wasn't always wiling to put in the minimum classes required, so the CI would sometimes have his test date slip a month or two while he caught up.  By the time he was able to test for shodan-sho (junior 1st degree), I was testing for my senior nidan.  Likewise, by the time he is old enough to test for adult shodan, I'll most likely have tested for sandan.

I keep having to remind him that martial arts is a lifelong journey, not a sprint to the next belt.

[KorroddyDude]

I live in a pretty rough area, only because of a house that my wife inherited from her grandmother.  We're getting a lot more than we pay for, so we don't complain at all.

That said, my children also train in karate.  During my two-month BJJ stint in 2023, I tried to get them to come with me but they were uninterested.  When I decided recently that I was getting back into BJJ, my 12 year old daughter came to me and insisted that she train too.  When I questioned her sudden interest, she told me of an incident in the neighborhood I didn't know about: when it was time for her to use her karate against another girl who was attacking her, the girl was getting straight pummeled and eventually realized that she wasn't going to outstrike my daughter.  So she tackled my daughter to the ground, and that was all she wrote.  My daughter decided "never again" when I told her I was getting back into BJJ.

I explained to her the children's belt system, how it differs from the adult system, and how she has to be reevaluated upon ageing out of the children's system (i.e., there are no equivalents, and therefore no guarantee that she'll start the adult system at anything higher than a white belt).  She shrugged it off, and was unbothered.  All she cares about is not letting what happened to her last time happen again.

Edited Monday at 08:41 PM by KorroddyDude

[bushido_man96]

I don't hear about these kinds of issues at our school.  However, there are people that tend to think that way, and they generally go away eventually.  Which is fine.  I want the students that want to be there and are interested in training.  Belts are a great motivational tool for students early on; earning a new rank is fun.  But eventually, the serious ones, figure out that the rank isn't as important as the journey, and they are the ones that stay.

I always hear it as a "western culture" characteristic, but I don't know that that is the case.  Not every Japanese person is walking around with black belt.  I'm sure there were Japanese students that have acted similarly.

19 minutes ago, KorroddyDude said:

During my two-month BJJ stint in 2023, I tried to get them to come with me but they were uninterested.  When I decided recently that I was getting back into BJJ, my 12 year old daughter came to me and insisted that she train too.  When I questioned her sudden interest, she told me of an incident in the neighborhood I didn't know about: when it was time for her to use her karate against another girl who was attacking her, the girl was getting straight pummeled and eventually realized that she wasn't going to outstrike my daughter.  So she tackled my daughter to the ground, and that was all she wrote.  My daughter decided "never again" when I told her I was getting back into BJJ.

I've heard a saying that goes, "experience is something you gain shortly after you need it."  Something like that.  Those who have experiences such as these tend to be the most motivated students that show up.  It's terrible that she had to experience such a thing.  But hopefully it drives her training for years to come.

[Himokiri Karate]

9 hours ago, KorroddyDude said:

The "dojang" and "Japanese" culture thing is throwing me off, but trying to make sense of this is probably besides the point.

This story seems a bit odd.  If something like this was running rampant at your dojang (or dojo, if it's Japanese?  I dunno.  I'll say "club" from here on), then it would be happening everywhere.  There may be students who ask when the next test is, what they have to do, etc.  But I've never seen students who flat out say "Screw the requirements, give me a black belt now."  I'm sure they know they can buy one on Amazon for $15.

I train at a Dojang with a Korean master. I go to a Japanese culture center to study Japanese with a private tutor and the Japanese culture center has their own dojo upstairs. My point was to point out that this issue is happening at every martial arts school that uses the belt system.
 

12 hours ago, Zaine said:

This isn't actually a new thing, we just have a little recency bias. I was commiserating with a friend on this exact topic the other day and we, like you, seemed to notice a rise in people not wanting to put in the actual work for a belt. America, and the West in general, is full of consumers. We love our instant gratification. We love our same-day deliveries. However, instructors in the 60s and 70s were complaining about the same thing. I've recently picked up Tales from the Western Generation by Matthew Apsokardu. It's a book that is full of interviews from the people who brought karate from Okinawa to the U.S. in the mid 1900s. In it, multiple sensei detail that they had/have issues with students who wanted status without discipline and time served. I was surprised to find that they had much the same complaints as I did with my friend. I came up in the early 2000s. I got my shodan in 2007/8. Thinking back, I can remember there were a number of people not satisfied with their progress and so they left. Some left for easier programs, others left martial arts altogether. That it seems a more recent phenomenon to us might just be that we're in a position of leadership now, or our relationships with our sensei have become more casual and friendly than they were. We are now more aware of the problem because it effects us in a different way.

So, to answer your question. It is a real thing. There are plenty of people who want to say that they're a black belt but don't want to put in the work. I've certainly encountered it in my community. There will always be people who join who don't intend to play by the rules. We just have to give them the same as everyone else. The long-term students will come.

Back in the day, like in the early 2000s, I remember two types of tomfoolery if you will:

1. People were looking for some secret mystical technique that is closely guarded by some powerful legendary master that opens the door to infinite possibility.

2.Others were looking for some deadly military techniques that is taught to the marines and special forces and do dangerous to be unleashed and BANNED from congress! 


These are two types of people I used to encounter and then the MMA/UFC blew up exactly 20 years ago and everyone wanted to learn MMA. I hear what you are saying, being a black belt lost its meaning. Back then, it used to mean something. Now its like "meh" but for me, I got in to boxing as a young adult and in the boxing culture, a person is defined by their signature style like if a boxer has some sick and slick jab or known for combo or freakishly fast and flashy footwork and countering abilities. 

Also to be fair, I kind of fall in to the mystical martial artist since I am more and more in to Internal practices like Indian Yoga, Qi Gong, Kujikiri and SunDo. 

22 hours ago, sensei8 said:

Unfortunately it’s the current rage of the page and has never really lessened. Yes, this has infected the MA schools pretty much in every community that I’ve ever lived in or ever visited.

Nowadays students want a fast food MA across the board. Earning anything in the MA is such a rush, especially from parents. 

Whenever a CI allows the customer is always right mentality to root in the school, the ends not far away. 

The customer is NOT always right because the schools integrity is at stake!! Every student must earn everything and only the CI decides that, and never the student, parents, or the man in the moon.

I hear you. I train in the Korean arts mixed of Tang Soo Do/Taekwondo as well as  Kyuk Too Ki ( Korean Kickboxing) and Sun Do ( Koreans version of Qi Gong) and I believe there is some Taekkyon and Hapkido in there. Because of that, I do not do the belt system or classes but just train privately with the head master and what I learn I use in boxing sparring like the footwork and feints. 


Honestly, I tried teaching a few times but I can't do it. Only select few disciples. That and I got in to ecommerce and I was seeing lots of profit but had to pause to learn the business better to serve customers better with better delivery companies, suppliers and etc...  

With the finances being handled, I would love to teach from a place of passion without profit. Even though my childhood dream was to own a modest dojo. But the economy of martial arts changed, life changed, what people value changed. Different reality from being a kid from the early 90s...