Approach to grading

[goju8]

 

Since I switched to Okinawan Karate like 20 years ago from Japanese Goju, my gradings have been quite different from what they were previously. I've graded in my home country and in Okinawa, and they all are basically identical. My dan grade tests pretty much have been: demonstrate x number of kata (amount depends on dan grade) of which you chose say one and then the grading panel chooses the remaining for you to do, after which you do a handful of kihon bunkai with a partner, and that is it. They're not some five hours long ordeal or something. My understanding is that in many Okinawan styles the dan grading while still a big deal, are not in the way they are for more Japanese karate and "Westerners" (a very fraught term I try to avoid using); you wouldn't be put up for the grade if you weren't ready, and sometimes there aren't even tests. The way I've been taught is that you're not really considered a fully accepted student until you get shodan, perhaps that has something to do with the aforementioned approach.

Has anyone else's experience been like this? I'm curious to hear your thoughts and experiences.

 

 

 

 

[Wastelander]

I haven't tested on Okinawa, but I know plenty of people who have, and their experience mirrors yours. All of my testing has been in the US, and so they have been pretty intense ordeals. Many Americans in my old organization would actually do two tests if they wanted to test on Okinawa; an easy test on Okinawa, and a real test back home after the fact to essentially validate the grade.

The Okinawans really don't consider shodan to be a big deal, and many Japanese instructors are the same way. It's not uncommon for kids to join karate clubs in school and have a shodan within 3 or 4 years. More intense testing tends to be reserved for teaching licenses, like a Shihan license or Menkyo Kaiden. The ranks aren't all that important, by comparison. In the West, the importance of these ranks was inflated when soldiers came back from 6-18 month deployments on Japan or Okinawa with shodan, nidan, and sandan ranks (with the expectation they would return regularly for training). Those soldiers set up shop teaching, and they needed a way to keep their students long enough to make those return trips, so they added more belts, or more time required between them, or extra material they could test them on. This also made the soldiers-turned-instructors seem more impressive, because they managed to get these ranks in record time, by comparison. We then entered the "blood and guts era" of Western karate, where being hardcore was the goal. It wasn't until the 80s, I believe, that ranks did a 180 for the purposes of making money, which has caused a strange dichotomy within Western karate when it comes to rank. On the one hand, belt mills and McDojos are common. On the other hand, a lot of the "blood and guts era" instructors still have legacies of more hardcore testing practices in many schools.

[goju8]

The ex-military Americans in-general made their approach to karate very militant, it's unfortunate. I much prefer the style of training without structured classes, you show up, train and maybe a sensei or a sempai comes and works with you; there's no reification of shodan and dan steps in-general so typically seen nowadays in most "western" dojos.

You mentioned strenuous tests for shogo. I've never heard of such a thing Okinawan karate dojos. No one uses the titles like renshi, kyoshi, hanshi, as actual titles to address anyone nor as something separate you test for. If one's organization uses those titles then they'll appear on a certificate, but that's it, at least this is from what I've seen, what I've learned, and what others who are fluent in the language and have lived there long-term have explained.

I know some organizations in Okinawa will use some of the shogo belts, which I find to be just silly, same as when karateka outside of Japan do, or others like in BJJ.

It's strange to me that the American contingent of your former organization (Shorinkan?) have different tests than their seniors in Okinawa, and that they felt the need to have the grueling tests to be validated in the eyes of their peers, it sounds like an ego thing.

Edited December 7 by goju8

[Nidan Melbourne]

Both our Dan Grades and our Kyu Grades follow a similar format.

- Warm Up 

- Kihon 

- Combinations 

- Kata 

       - Senior Grades demonstrate 1 at a time their grading kata + 1 additional 

- Pre-arranged Sparring (Gyakusoku, Bunkai , Kyogi)

             - This is generally the reason why our Black Belt Gradings run so long; especially with more people! 

              - Depending on number of Candidates grading for each dan grade; Bunkai will take approx 25 minutes 

              - Kyogi omg can take F.O.R.E.V.E.R. as you are limited to the number of instructors. Under 15 = 15 Kyogi, 16+ = 25. 

                           - If you have 5 instructors, then 5 pairs go at once. This can take anywhere from 30 minutes to 2-3 hours. 

- Kumite  

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

[KorroddyDude]

11 hours ago, goju8 said:

It's strange to me that the American contingent of your former organization (Shorinkan?) have different tests than their seniors in Okinawa, and that they felt the need to have the grueling tests to be validated in the eyes of their peers, it sounds like an ego thing.

In the Hampton Roads area of Virginia, there are karate dojos everywhere, and I'd say that well over 90% of them are either Shorinkan, or are part of an organization that split from Shorinkan (such as Butokukan, Kiyobukan, Nakazato-ha, Kensankai, etc).

There's a Shorin-ryu dojo not too far from me, where I've seen adults and children doing knuckle pushups on the concrete right outside the store front.  I've also driven along a wooded rocky waterfront where I've seen people (children and adults) doing kata in waist-deep water, wearing gis that have Shorinkan patches on them.

If they like it, I love it.  However, my money says that they're not aware that there's a such thing as karate that's not like that.

[KorroddyDude]

If I were to take a guess, the reason why Japanese styles of karate haven't suffered a similar fate to Okinawan styles in the US would be because Japanese organizations appear to be far more strict in how they're organized and regulated.  For example, ISKF has its beginnings in Nakayama sensei of JKA sending Okazaki, Yaguchi, and Mikami over to set up shop.  They maintained oversight of the US dojos and reported back to headquarters in Japan (i.e., things weren't left to Americans to run things how they saw fit).

I don't think Shorinkan or most other Okinawan organizations were run similarly.

[sensei8]

Our Senior Testing Cycles take 2-3 DAYS to complete due to the amount of material, both physical and written, that’s required. 

Kyu Testing Cycles can take many different hours depending in the kyu being tested. Dan Testing Cycles can take 1-2 days to complete.

Both of our founders were from Okinawa and migrated to the USA. Whenever it came to certain things, they were extremely strict to the Nth degree…and beyond. 

Why?

 I believe that they perhaps didn’t trust us whatsoever, so they made us go over EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING, from Jukyu up to Hachidan. Yes, Hachidan rank didn’t escape the grueling Testing Cycle at all

It was their baby and their house. When in Rome, might apply.

[goju8]

Re KorroddyDude,

But aren't there plenty of examples of Japanese karate that do such tests and more? It's common in many Kyokushin branches, as well as some Japanese goju, and its various succedding off-shoots. Maybe I'm miss understanding you. When I think of Japanese karate, I think of much more militant karate than Okinawan, I think structured classes, lining up, grueling dan tests, lots of jiyu kumite, etc.

 

I agree though, to each their own; if people like being in that kind of environment, good for them. That is not what I like, I find a friendly welcoming less hierarchical atmosphere much more enjoyable and conducive to learning.

[KorroddyDude]

20 hours ago, goju8 said:

Re KorroddyDude,

But aren't there plenty of examples of Japanese karate that do such tests and more? It's common in many Kyokushin branches, as well as some Japanese goju, and its various succedding off-shoots. Maybe I'm miss understanding you. When I think of Japanese karate, I think of much more militant karate than Okinawan, I think structured classes, lining up, grueling dan tests, lots of jiyu kumite, etc.

Yes, but my point wasn't that Okinawan belt tests are hazefests and Japanese belt tests are not.

My point was that Okinawan organizations don't seem to have as tight a grip on their overseas dojos as Japanese organizations do.  Hence, why some American dojos in those Okinawan organizations seem to be able to get away with turning their belt testings into hazefests.

In truth, I wouldn't consider Kyokushin to be "Japanese karate."  And this isn't me trying to play "No true Scotsman," as I am fully aware that it meets the definition of Japanese karate.  However, I believe that Kyokushin and Ashihara kaikan represent a distinct karate culture that warrants a separate classification.  As a Shotokan guy, I'd feel a sense of kinship in a Wado-ryu dojo or a Shindo jinen-ryu dojo.  But on that same token, I'd feel like just as much of an alien in a Kyokushin dojo as I would in a Uechi-ryu dojo.

From what I've heard some people discussing, the reason for the grueling tests in American Shorinkan dojos has something to do with a few of its instructors coming into contact with Kyokushin back in the 1970's, and deciding that they wanted to keep up with the Joneses.  Meanwhile, none of this is going on in Okinawa, and no one in Okinawa was willing or able to stop it.

20 hours ago, goju8 said:

I agree though, to each their own; if people like being in that kind of environment, good for them. That is not what I like, I find a friendly welcoming less hierarchical atmosphere much more enjoyable and conducive to learning.

Amen to that.

Edited December 8 by KorroddyDude

[bushido_man96]

My experience with testing and gradings, which is in TKD for the most part, has all really just been demonstration of curriculum.  As a high rank, I am prepared to demonstrate any and all of the material that exists below my rank.  This can be quite the workout, as we have 10 colored belt forms and then up to 7 more black belt forms, depending on the black belt rank.  We also have the one-steps, three-steps, and Do-Gons, or "black belt basics," that our associations does.  Fill in sparring and board breaking, and we could end up with a pretty long testing.  However, I don't view it as overly intense, as there isn't a lot of other unnecessary trappings added in, like extensive calisthenics such as pushups, sit-ups, burpees, etc.  We also don't do "50 man kumite" or anything like that.  The only other thing we have to do as black belts is write an essay that gets turned into the GM.

Personally, I would not be interested in a "boot camp" style of testing.