Shorin-Ryu and its similarities/differences to Wado-Ryu and Shito-Ryu

[Nidan Melbourne]

So recently a couple of friends of mine were recently to Godan (5th Dan) in Shorin-Ryu. But from memory one was a Wado Practitioner and the other was a Shito Practitioner. 

Now I don't know much about Shorin-Ryu's History along with Wado or Shito. 

So What I am asking is what are the similarities and differences between Shorin-Ryu and Wado/Shito? 

 

 

[RJCKarate]

Both have a strong foundation in Shorinryu (more Chibana than Kyan), but life any style, there are subtle differences that really define the stylistic lenses. 

As the parent style, perhaps they somewhat have the ability to look at their grand/children and day, 'hey, I'm happy with that'.

For example, I tell my students up until 4Kyu we're rally just learning Karate. From 3Kyu it should be obvious of the differences between Shorinryu and other styles, and from 1Dan it should be clear they do Matsubayashiryu not Sho/Kobayashiryu.

Just my thoughts!

Edited November 22 by RJCKarate

[sensei8]

First of all, they’re all Okinawa styles. They all have a strong emphasis on Kata. They all have effective applications of their self-defense methodology and ideology.

Shorin-ryu incorporates quick and linear movements executed from a upright posture.

Wado-ryu incorporates sleek evasive movements while utilizing throws and joint manipulations from a more lower posture.

Shito-ryu is quite eclectic in how they use their approach to combining soft and hard techniques. They favor a more circular approach while being linear at the same time in any given posture for their effectiveness.

All three seem to be quite effective with how they utilizing elements from other MA styles.

[KorroddyDude]

29 minutes ago, sensei8 said:

First of all, they’re all Okinawa styles.

Not Shito-ryu.  It was founded in Osaka, and there are exactly as many Shito-ryu dojos in Okinawa as there are Shotokan - zero.

[sensei8]

19 minutes ago, KorroddyDude said:

Not Shito-ryu.  It was founded in Osaka, and there are exactly as many Shito-ryu dojos in Okinawa as there are Shotokan - zero.

My mistake. I was always lead to believe that Shito-ryu originated in Okinawa, like most major styles. I feel real dumb now.

[RJCKarate]

14 hours ago, KorroddyDude said:

Not Shito-ryu.  It was founded in Osaka, and there are exactly as many Shito-ryu dojos in Okinawa as there are Shotokan - zero.

Actually, I believe there's one under Onaga Yusuke.

But neither Shitoryu or Wadoryu are considered Okinawan karate. 

[Wado Heretic]

To give a better answer, my first question would be to ask who, and where they were, awarded their Dan grades? I have known some Okinawan Organisations to recognise Dan grades from other systems, though it does not explicitly mean it is an endorsement of a person's skill in the Okinawan Systems. Some unscrupulous people have used this to promote themselves as experts in Okinawan karate despite having a very limited experience of it. 

With regards to Wado-Ryu and Shito-Ryu having similarities to Shorin-Ryu. To answer this it depends on the branch of Shorin-Ryu: whether it is Kobayashi, Matsubayashi, Sukunaihayashi (Seibukan), or Shobuyashi. In terms of Kata there is similarity between all the branches, and the aforementioned Japanese systems. In the list below I will be focusing on kata I am aware of that exist in Shito-Ryu, Wado-Ryu, and in at least one branch of Shorin-ryu:

Pinan kata series: All the systems mentioned practice the Pinangata.

Kūsankū: All the systems mentioned practice a version of Kusanku.

Naihanchi: All the systems mentioned practice at least Naihanchi Shodan.

Seisan: Seibukan, Shito-Ryu, Wado-Ryu, and some branches of Kobayashi.

Chintō: All the systems mentioned practice a version of Chintō.

Passai: All the systems mentioned practice a version of Passai.

Rōhai: Matsubayashi, Shito-Ryu, Wado-Ryu, and some branches of Kobayashi.

Wanshū: Seibukan, Matsubayashi, Shito-Ryu, Wado-Ryu, and some branches of Kobayashi.

Jion: Seibukan, Shito-Ryu, Wado-Ryu, and Kobayashi.

Jitte: Shito-Ryu, Wado-Ryu, and some branches of Kobayashi.

Thus, if we were tally the kata in common between Wado-Ryu, Shito-ryu, and the best-known branches of Shorin-Ryu we get the following, in descending order:

Kobayashi: 6-9

Seibukan: 8

Matsubayashi: 7

Shobayashi: 5

A lot of the core kata are similar between the Wado-Ryu, Shito-Ryu, and the various branches of Shorin-Ryu. Most begin with a thorough study of the Pinangata and Naihanchi before continuing to Passai and further on from there. However, it should be noted that the Pinangata and Naihanchi were added to Seibukan by the second generation.

Beyond the kata we can get into the kumite but that would deserve a book to be fair to all the subtle differences. Nonetheless, I will give a brief overview. Both Matsubayashi and Wado-Ryu have formal kumite forms which were influenced by Motobu Choki, although Wado-Ryu has significantly more two-man exercises, and were also influenced by Shindo Yoshin-Ryu.

Orthodox Okinawan Karate methodologies, which most branches of Shorin-Ryu can be called as they come down via shared sources, when you get into applications usually fall into free-style wrestling with dirty boxing, or kickboxing with dirty Judo. Which is to say they focus on arm-controlling or body-to-body techniques and trying to put the opponent on the floor, while utilising percussive techniques to make resisting being thrown even more difficult. Conversely using punching and kicking to control distance, and then throwing when the opportunity presents itself, and using handles and targets to start the throw you would not see in polite competition such as the hair, fingers, dangly bits et cetera.

In terms of principles, and using Shito-Ryu terms, we might say a lot of Shorin-Ryu techniques embody Rakka, the use of powerful technique to subdue and stagnate an attempt to attack, and hangeki, defeating an attack with your own.

Still using Shito-Ryu terms, In contrast, Wado-Ryu tends to favour ryūsui, flowing around attacks to nullify and stagnate an attack, and ten’I, changing position relative to an opponent to gain advantage.

As can be gathered from my using the Shito-Ryu terms we can gather that Shito-Ryu tries to embody all these principles. However, at the higher level, in Shorin-Ryu, there should be use of ryusui and ten’I in conjunction with rakka and hangeki. Plus, in truth, some principles do not work without employing another. Rakka relies on ten’I for best outcome, and hangeki on ryusui to give the base combinations.

Plus, to mention the last of the five fundamental principles of Shito-Ryu outlined by Mabuni Kenwa, kusshin: the use of stances and body movements to contract, expand, lower, and rise, as part of a counter attack or technique. This principle should be observed in Shorin-Ryu Kata, and in Wado-Ryu’s Kumite gata, to be performed correctly.

There are then other principles which do not carry over perfectly such as gamaku and chinkuchi and so on and so forth. But that is going back to probably requiring a book to do the topic justice.

Anyway, I would say most of the kata the systems have in common fall into the Kickboxing with dirty Judo when it comes to their applications. They use a lot of large techniques which expand and collapse the miai, either into or out of body-to-body combat range.

From personal experience, I began my study of Shorin-Ryu having essentially just earned my Shodan in Wado-Ryu. The main areas where I felt I had to basically start all over was in the proper use of the waist to generate power, and fixing my stances with intent, but I still managed to earn my Nidan in Shorin-Ryu with just two years of training. Now, I was able to train Four times a week, and did a couple of hours a day of my own training, in that two year period. But the point being, there is a lot that is transferable.

 

[KorroddyDude]

Which Kobayashi-ryu schools practice Jion/Jitte/Jion?

To my knowledge, neither Chibana nor Nakazato taught these or any other Tomari-te kata.

Edited November 24 by KorroddyDude

[Wado Heretic]

In that our sources agree. There is no existing evidence that Chibana, or Nakazato, taught a version of Jion or Jitte.

However, Kyudokan and its descendent schools have a version of Jion and Jitte. Most likely they came from Higa Yuchoku Hanshi's studies with his first teacher Jiroma Shiro, although some credit his later teacher Miyahira Seiei. Yet, Higa generally credited Miyahira with expert instruction in punching techniques rather than kata. Generally speaking, the original source is not know specifically. Aside from Kyudokan, some of the descendent schools of Shidokan have a version of Jion. The origin of theirs' I am even less sure of. 

But an interesting aside is that two of Itosu students, Yabu Kentsu and Hanashiro Chomo, are both credited with versions of Jion which are still practiced. Chozu Nakama, a late Kobayashi instructor, reportedly taught Jion as he learnt it from Hanashiro. It is important to note that Hanashiro's only known teachers were Matsumura Sokon and Itosu Anko. Thus, there is a Shuri, and thus by extension a Shorin-Ryu Jion tradition. I have been unsuccessful in tracing it any further back unfortunately. 

[Spartacus Maximus]

Amateur okinawan karate historian here. There is much similarity among those styles as they share most of their kata. The Naihanchi and Pinan series as well as very similar renderings of the kata Passai, Chinto and Kusanku. All can trace their origin to Matsumura Sokon(taught Shotokan founder) as well as the most influential Okinawans to introduce karate to mainland Japan such as Funakoshi(disciple of Matsumura), Motubu and a few others, all from the shuri-te, which is what it. was called before evolving into all the shorin stlyes.