How can this dojo have two 10th Dan instructors?

[bushido_man96]

I agree that this sounds suspect. Two 10th dans and a 9th dan in the same place? Very suspect. Is it the only other option in your area?

Another question I had was whether or not your current CI had a plan for the club to keep running after he retires? Is there anyone in the club qualified to take over?

[ashworth]

In my eyes 10th Dan was usually reserved for heads of organisation so for me I would never expect to see two 10th Dan in the same club!

[sensei8]

Two 10th Dans don't strengthen a dojo, they dramatically weaken said dojo, neither do they complement its Student Body. It would be more beneficial for the dojo and its Student Body if there was only one Judan and one Kudan, however in this case, that ship has already sailed into uncharted waters.

Imho!!

[Montana]

In my experience, there are generally two types of dojo's that have very high (7th dan+) ranked individuals in the same dojo.

The first are the self-promoting belt factory garbage schools that are run by frauds and only after your $$$.

I'm not going to worry about the 2nd type, as I'd bet a lot of money that what you're looking at is the first type, especially when they said your Shotokan ranking was a fraud.

PLEASE, post a link to them (Facebook, website, whatever) so we can all take a look. Even just a name and city so we can google them.

[DarthPenguin]

Yep i would definitely be interested in taking a look too - out of sheer nosiness if nothing else!!

Also might help others who look into the school as if the details are added this thread might come up when someone does a google search and prompt people to look into it a little more

[Lxixboss]

I agree that this seems a bit "questionable" at the least. Do they have a link to a page we can all take a gander at? Or the name/location that we can google?

So, I was reluctant to post a link to their site but, hey, if they are legit, they will appreciate my due diligence. If they are bogus, then I won't train there anyway.

So, here is the website to their school (is it OK to post that?): http://clerouxkaratedojo.com/HOME.html

You will see that the first parts of the site are in French. Please persist "an English version follows".

The "patriarch" is Hanshi Cleroux. He is purportedly a 10th Dan. The head instructor is also a 10th Dan while another instructor is a 9th Dan.

This dojo seems heavily intertwined with the "Canadian Karate Association" which has a facebook page but no website that I could find. The dojo and the Association seem to be very closely related. I can find no reference to either of these entities other than through the other. So, only the Cleroux dojo seems to mention the Canadian Karate Association and only the Cleroux dojo seems to mention the Canadian Karate Association.

Anyway, I am eager to hear what those with more knowledge than I seem to think about this. If it is legit, I am indeed fortunate to live so close to them and to potentially benefit from their instruction.

[Wastelander]

I agree that this seems a bit "questionable" at the least. Do they have a link to a page we can all take a gander at? Or the name/location that we can google?

So, I was reluctant to post a link to their site but, hey, if they are legit, they will appreciate my due diligence. If they are bogus, then I won't train there anyway.

So, here is the website to their school (is it OK to post that?): http://clerouxkaratedojo.com/HOME.html

You will see that the first parts of the site are in French. Please persist "an English version follows".

The "patriarch" is Hanshi Cleroux. He is purportedly a 10th Dan. The head instructor is also a 10th Dan while another instructor is a 9th Dan.

This dojo seems heavily intertwined with the "Canadian Karate Association" which has a facebook page but no website that I could find. The dojo and the Association seem to be very closely related. I can find no reference to either of these entities other than through the other. So, only the Cleroux dojo seems to mention the Canadian Karate Association and only the Cleroux dojo seems to mention the Canadian Karate Association.

Anyway, I am eager to hear what those with more knowledge than I seem to think about this. If it is legit, I am indeed fortunate to live so close to them and to potentially benefit from their instruction.

Well, provided his bio on the website is true, he was ranked legitimately to 9th Dan in Chito-Ryu, although some of his intermediate dan ranks were done a bit oddly--sort of a break in his lineage. It also looks like his 10th Dan was an honorary thing from the government, which is weird. I can't speak to the politics involved, because it's certainly possible there was some pay-to-play or quid-pro-quo going on, but there's no evidence to say one way or the other. It is definitely unusual for a single dojo to have two 10th Dans and a 9th Dan, unless it is the headquarters dojo of a major organization/style. For example, the Shorinkan on Okinawa has two 10th Dans, and a few 9th Dans, I believe, but it's also the largest Shorin-Ryu organization in the world.

[DarthPenguin]

I agree that this seems a bit "questionable" at the least. Do they have a link to a page we can all take a gander at? Or the name/location that we can google?

So, I was reluctant to post a link to their site but, hey, if they are legit, they will appreciate my due diligence. If they are bogus, then I won't train there anyway.

So, here is the website to their school (is it OK to post that?): http://clerouxkaratedojo.com/HOME.html

You will see that the first parts of the site are in French. Please persist "an English version follows".

The "patriarch" is Hanshi Cleroux. He is purportedly a 10th Dan. The head instructor is also a 10th Dan while another instructor is a 9th Dan.

This dojo seems heavily intertwined with the "Canadian Karate Association" which has a facebook page but no website that I could find. The dojo and the Association seem to be very closely related. I can find no reference to either of these entities other than through the other. So, only the Cleroux dojo seems to mention the Canadian Karate Association and only the Cleroux dojo seems to mention the Canadian Karate Association.

Anyway, I am eager to hear what those with more knowledge than I seem to think about this. If it is legit, I am indeed fortunate to live so close to them and to potentially benefit from their instruction.

Well, provided his bio on the website is true, he was ranked legitimately to 9th Dan in Chito-Ryu, although some of his intermediate dan ranks were done a bit oddly--sort of a break in his lineage. It also looks like his 10th Dan was an honorary thing from the government, which is weird. I can't speak to the politics involved, because it's certainly possible there was some pay-to-play or quid-pro-quo going on, but there's no evidence to say one way or the other. It is definitely unusual for a single dojo to have two 10th Dans and a 9th Dan, unless it is the headquarters dojo of a major organization/style. For example, the Shorinkan on Okinawa has two 10th Dans, and a few 9th Dans, I believe, but it's also the largest Shorin-Ryu organization in the world.

Yeah i thought similar - looked like legitimate ranking to 9th Dan and he also freely posted details of individuals etc. involved, which happens less often with people who are being 'creative'. I also had a look at some of the named individuals and he was mentioned there (eg there is info on Sensei Tsuruoka online that references them both).

What i did find odd though was there is no similar background of the 'other' 10th Dan involved. He is mentioned in the 'instructors' tab, but i would have assumed that he would have had an equally as prominent background. I had a look at his club page too and it lists his dates for each dan grade but not the examiner, with the exception of Sensei Tsuruoka grading him for Kyoshi in 2012. His own site also lists him as a 9th Dan rather than a 10th dan which is also odd!

I must admit that it seems quite confusing! Both of the most senior individuals seen to have been graded by a legitimate authority in Sensei Tsuruoka, but it still seems weird to have them both plus another 9th Dan teaching across 3 venues (Sensei Fleming seems to actually teach in his own school and is the President of the schools in question here). I also find it quite strange that two such senior instructors could be teaching together without it being a famous location such as the Shorinkan that Wastelander referenced.

Since the OP has trained before maybe it is worth popping along and seeing what it is like on the chance that they are legit! If so, then it would be an astonishingly high level of tuition to have available. Also would answer the question of legitimacy quite quickly - maybe pop along with some friends who hold higher dan rank and see what they think too

[Montana]

I tried to watch their kata videos they had on there, but it kept stalling out and after 5-10 minutes of each and not getting anywhere, I gave up.

But what I did see of the grey haired black belt, he didn't "move" like a black belt should be moving IMO. Realizing of course it was a demo video of their yellow belt kata, I thought the technique was sloppy and the transition from one move to the next was very poor. Also in some of the punches and blocks that I could see, his fist was bent back, not straight so he struck with the knuckles instead of his fingers.

As others have said, the main Judan (10th) seemed legit in his background with a few oddities, but I still think 2 10th dans and a 9th in a dojo are a bit odd. I'd love to watch a class sometime.