What styles are known for their bunkai?

[username19853]

I know that the original applications have been lost. And there are a lot of ideas out there, even though nobody truly has it figured out. But here’s a thought I had:

Goju Ryu, for example, has less kata on their syllabus than Shotokan. I would imagine that the practitioners of Goju are further along in developing at least a “core curriculum” for their style in certain dojo’s. I feel like I’d be more likely to walk into a Goju place and have a teacher have an application for every movement in every kata, than if I walked into a Shotokan place.

With a lot of Shorin Ryu schools, I’ve noticed they can give SOME application for most of their kata, but they always leave out certain parts of a kata for applications. Pinan Shodan for example, I feel like everyone has an application for the opening sequence, but I rarely see applications for the movements that come after.

Which brings me to my question, what styles would be more well known for having practical applications of their kata? Excluding Noah Legel as I know he’s an amazing Shorin Ryu guy.

I’m really struggling to find applications for the Pinan kata (aside from the opening sequences of some) and Naihanchi Shodan, nidan and Sandan (again, aside from the main sequences).

Any help or advice?

[bushido_man96]

I don't know if this would be a style related thing, or more of an instructor related philosophy on teaching bunkai. Instead of thinking in terms of styles, think on the type of instructors within the styles and schools you seek.

[Spartacus Maximus]

The answer lies not with the style, but with the depth of knowledge and experience any given instructor has to share. There are immense variations even within the same style as to how kata bunkai will be taught, approached and practised.

[sensei8]

Excellent advise thus far in this topic. Styles might have Bunkai, however, that Bunkai must be effective to have any tangible value of itself. Any Bunkai can be created by whomever, but whenever its placed under the microscope of research and its like, its ineffectiveness is exposed.

As already mentioned, the value of knowledge and experience separates that Bunkai sequence of which lies within that scope of any said instructors own knowledge and experience. Cool looking means absolutely nothing; effectiveness against a live and resisting opponent echos its value.

Knowing and understanding body mechanics goes a long way towards said Bunkai's effectiveness. Nonetheless, core Bunkai is limited, and even then, any responsible student has to decide for themselves that Bunkai's effectiveness for that individual. After all, what I can do with any given Bunkai, core or not, doesn't mean that someone else can do that given Bunkai.

That's why Oyo Bunkai, and the understanding of Oyo, is vitally important in taking said Bunkai to a higher understanding of effectiveness. Pinan and Naihanchi Bunkai are wide in its effectiveness, yet, those effective Bunkai have to be sought out after through ones own Petri dish type of research within ones Knowledge and experience in a live resistance trails.

Train Bunkai, Oyo or not, with an instructor, first. Then train and research outside of ones instructor with other MAists, hopefully instructors, but not necessary. Then, books and venue such as YouTube. If it walks like a duck, then it's a duck of a Bunkai, no matter that Bunkai's origin. Same, taste, discard/accept over and over and over and so on and so forth.

Most of the time, effective Bunkai relies on that students MA maturity. Within that MA maturity is Shu Ha Ri, in which, that MA maturity takes a lot of time to reach, especially when Shu Ha Ri keeps changing as the student changes.

Those Bunkai you're struggling with will only be overcome as your MA maturity grows...but nonetheless, it'll develop over time, and all types of effective Bunkai will be revealed...through patient time.

Train hard and train well.

[username19853]

Thank you everyone! Yeah, I myself have even given the advice that answers don’t lie within any one style, but within your best teacher and yourself. I just figured with so many questions and lack of answers (that I’m able to find) within Shorin Ryu, I figured there would be a larger community present, from other styles that have less kata to practice (like Goju), playing around with more bunkai and applications.

I only ever find stuff on Fukyugata Ni/gekisai, the opening moves to some of the Pinan/heian, and Naihanchi Shodan. Just trying to deepen my understanding of WHY I practice the movements I practice, and not just because I love the art (which I very much do).

Thank you for your patience and humbling advice!

[Wastelander]

I'm glad you think so highly of me, but I wouldn't call myself amazing .

I can say that, for the most part, you are likely going to have issues finding video examples of applications for the rest of the kata because the instructors teaching them are keeping that reserved for seminars and in-person students. The opening movements are the teaser material to get you to buy the rest, so to speak. You might also find scattered examples, and if you took the time, you could probably put them together to get a full picture of the kata (that's sort of how we approached Waza Wednesday).

I know Iain Abernethy and Arakaki Kiyoshi Sensei have put out a couple videos on YouTube where they go over drills that span the entirety of Naihanchi, and Iain has quite a bit for the Pinan, as well. There are LOTS of bits and pieces to be found, but they are scattered because, again, for the most part you are looking at freely available content from people who charge money for instruction. I do believe that Michael and Aaron of Karate Culture made their Naihanchi and Pinan instructionals available for free on their website some time ago, though.

[cheesefrysamurai]

Some arts or dojos teach punching and kicking and they get quite good at it. They employ mechanics and tactics without depth found in some other arts. Does that make they worse fighters? Definitely not. Does that make them inferior, no. Some people might get bogged down with the detail and incremental progress of a deep internal art. Some might blast through katas in search of hidden depths or “secrets” and get bored really fast.

This is how it was explained to me.

Shotokan gets much of its knowledge from shorin ryu. Through it’s adaptation things were changed. In this process some of the connection to the shorin ryu roots especially when kata were modified for aesthetic purposes.They simply didn’t take the bunkai and much of the bunkai can’t be reverse engineered because of the changes.

It’s not too hard to make basic bunkai though. Shotokan is an effective art and in the least you can take things at face value.

Many practitioners are trying to piece it together and create bunkai but to some arts a punch is just a punch..

[Wado Heretic]

Historically, an argument can be made for Naha Te being the strongest school for Bunkai as a practice. This is reflected in the existence of the Kaisai no Genri in Goju-Ryu, but it is a body of knowledge older than Goju-Ryu itself.

Shi-To Ryu can be said to have a similarly strong heritage, with its founder, Mabuni Kenwa, being the source of significant insight into the application of kata movement. Mabuni also wrote several works on applications for Naha Te no gata.

Uechi Ryu has sets of application for its fundamental kata which are part of its core curriculum.

Outside of Naha Te descendent schools, Wado-Ryu has the Kata Kumite sets, but they are rarely taught and are largely Ohtsuka Meijin's interpretations of recurring movements in the kata. Not unlike Motobu Choki's Kumite exercises if one compares them side by side. Yet, the Kihon Kumite do teach broad ideas about fighting, and one can apply the insights they give to the Kata of Wado-Ryu very easily.

American Kempo has a strong application format: its forms evolved from its self-defence techniques, so if you learn the techniques you will have learnt the form applications.

Most modern karateka, or martial artists with a background in forms, are moving towards the application camp. You really have to travel far or be stuck in the middle of nowhere to find anyone who does not know about the concept. Generally speaking, however, any school that does teach applications will not teach them from day one because of what you need to learn to make such training safe. You will need to learn how to fall properly (Ukemi Waza) and you will need to develop some fundamental technique and conditioning to make such training safe and useful.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Personally, experience has shown that bunkai and kata applications depend more on the instructor than the style. Within a single style and organization of karate, there can be a very wide difference between how applications are approached, taught and how much. So it is impossible to choose a style based on how much applications will be taught. Finding the right instructor is key.

[aurik]

In Uechi Ryu, two of our katas have bunkai that were formalized by Kanei Uechi (the son of the founder, Kanbun Uechi). These two bunkai are pretty much universal across Uechi-Ryu organizations. These bunkai are for kanshiwa (the first rank kata we learn) and seisan (required for shodan).

Our bunkai is done somewhat different from other styles' bunkai (or at least those I've seen). Our bunkai is a pretty formal demonstration. The defender will demonstrate a given technique as demonstrated in the kata, then he will show its application, and then he will demonstrate the technique in the kata again.

In addition to the formal bunkai, our CI enjoys periodically working with us on some of the techniques from our katas. All of our hojo undo (accessory exercises) are taken directly from kata, and from time to time we'll practice using those exercises on an attacker. There are also a number of throws implicit in our katas, and from time to time he has us work those with a partner as well. Unfortunately with the whole COVID situation, we really can't do partner work except in certain circumstances (ie, if you're living in the same household, or we have two shodans preparing for their nidan test who are practicing regularly with each other).