Imminent school split

[mushybees]

Our club is unusual in that the highest grades are both yondan and the least experienced is the chief instructor.

There's been a harmonious dynamic for the last 15 years but it's about to change.

One of the instructors is leaving the club and although he hasn't asked me to leave (he would never poach students) he has certainly set his stall out.

If I had maintained a healthy seperation from my teachers it wouldn't have been a problem. Unfortunately I've become very good friends with the ci.

If I'm being objective my path in martial arts is following the instructor who is leaving and I have an unpleasant task ahead of me.

My question to everyone is what has been your experiences of club's splitting? Good and bad.

Has anyone had to leave a club where they were friends with their sensei but for better instruction?

[singularity6]

My school split about a year or so after I joined. A number of things contributed to this happening. Ultimately the master instructor and his highest ranking student/instructor had differing opinions on how the class should run. Now we have 2 schools that teach the same style, but in different ways.

I think that a split can usually be a good thing, if relationships can remain amicable as discord within the school never helps things!

Most people, martial artists included, do not like change. But we should follow our training and "be like water."

[bushido_man96]

Never had this happen before, so I feel for you. Its going to be a tough decision to make, but in the end, you need to make sure you make the right decision for you.

Take your time to analyze the pros and cons of going with each side, and weigh out the options fully before making up your mind.

I wish you the best.

[Wastelander]

To be perfectly honest, unless you are already close to your instructor's skill level, then as long as they continue training and learning, you should be fine in either place. If you really think the instructor who is leaving is better, at least at certain things, maybe you can talk to your CI about occasionally visiting the other instructor for specific classes or lessons.

[JR 137]

I haven’t had this happen either, but I’ve heard of it several times. At the end of the day, you have to make the right decision for yourself. If you’re there to learn from the CI, stay with him. If the assistant is the one who’s really teaching you and keeping you training, go with him.

Be aware there’s typically egos involved. Some CIs won’t let you come back if you leave to follow someone who left. I don’t think that’s right, but I’ve it happen many times. I mention that because being a new dojo and all, what if the dojo doesn’t last long? What if he doesn’t get the students and type of new students you want to train alongside? Now you’re looking for another place.

None of us have the whole picture here. You’ve got to stay true to your own path above all else.

[Bulltahr]

HHHmmm that's a tough one, loyalty is very important to me, I'm in a similar situation and also unsure of what to do.

I am following this thread with interest.

Sorry I don't have any solution to the problem as yet.

[DWx]

How much better is the other instructor? Honestly I would stick with the person you get on with better as long as you are still learning. They'll also improve over time with their own training and will pass it down to you too. No doubt you'll have other opportunities to learn from others at seminars and the like. Unless you are really concerned over stagnating with your current Ci I think it's important to maintain that relationship.

[MatsuShinshii]

My entire organization split when my Shinshii retired and his most senior student decided to change what was being taught and how it was taught. At first it was almost a 50/50 split down the line because some liked his open charismatic personality over Shinshii's stanch strict way of teaching the art so many were over looking just what was to change as they made their decision to follow this man.

I was Shinshii's second most senior student, only by grade/ not time, and was being petitioned daily to go along with these changes and with him.

In the end I sided against him, not like it was a choice, and the organization fractured and has never recovered. I guess you could say it wasn't a good split.

Many years prior to this, my Shinshii's first student decided to leave and start his own organization. I looked up to both this man and my Shinshii so when I was asked to join him it was very difficult. On one hand Shinshii was very much like a father and on the other this student was very much like a brother to me.

In the end I sided with Shinshii even though this student was perceived physically to be better, Shinshii was the book of knowledge. He also was the man who invested countless hours, days, weeks, years and even decades into my betterment. In the end it was easy to choose and I was loyal to a fault.

Some students returned shortly after following him.

A year latter I knew I made the right choice as this other student was taken from us sadly when he was diagnosed with cancer and died a very short time later. His students scattered to the wind and his dream of an organization went with them. The students that did return were not up to the same standards as Shinshii's in terms of grade level.

This showed me that physical appearance is not everything. Just because they look better doesn't mean they are. And just because they are very good at something themselves doesn't mean they can teach it well to others.

My question; are these instructors better in terms of ability or knowledge or both?

The reason I ask is many times we judge by outside appearance and forget to look past that. Many students followed my Shinshii's first student due to them perceiving his skill level being better than Shinshii's. However his knowledge of the art and knowledge of teaching the art palled in comparison when compared to Shinshii.

You may want to think about this before making a decision. Remember your CI taught the instructor in question. That should tell you something.

If this guy is that good, you have to wonder how he got that way. It's not just natural ability. He was guided and helped along the way.

Just my 2 cents.

[JR 137]

My entire organization split when my Shinshii retired and his most senior student decided to change what was being taught and how it was taught. At first it was almost a 50/50 split down the line because some liked his open charismatic personality over Shinshii's stanch strict way of teaching the art so many were over looking just what was to change as they made their decision to follow this man.

I was Shinshii's second most senior student, only by grade/ not time, and was being petitioned daily to go along with these changes and with him.

In the end I sided against him, not like it was a choice, and the organization fractured and has never recovered. I guess you could say it wasn't a good split.

Many years prior to this, my Shinshii's first student decided to leave and start his own organization. I looked up to both this man and my Shinshii so when I was asked to join him it was very difficult. On one hand Shinshii was very much like a father and on the other this student was very much like a brother to me.

In the end I sided with Shinshii even though this student was perceived physically to be better, Shinshii was the book of knowledge. He also was the man who invested countless hours, days, weeks, years and even decades into my betterment. In the end it was easy to choose and I was loyal to a fault.

Some students returned shortly after following him.

A year latter I knew I made the right choice as this other student was taken from us sadly when he was diagnosed with cancer and died a very short time later. His students scattered to the wind and his dream of an organization went with them. The students that did return were not up to the same standards as Shinshii's in terms of grade level.

This showed me that physical appearance is not everything. Just because they look better doesn't mean they are. And just because they are very good at something themselves doesn't mean they can teach it well to others.

My question; are these instructors better in terms of ability or knowledge or both?

The reason I ask is many times we judge by outside appearance and forget to look past that. Many students followed my Shinshii's first student due to them perceiving his skill level being better than Shinshii's. However his knowledge of the art and knowledge of teaching the art palled in comparison when compared to Shinshii.

You may want to think about this before making a decision. Remember your CI taught the instructor in question. That should tell you something.

If this guy is that good, you have to wonder how he got that way. It's not just natural ability. He was guided and helped along the way.

Just my 2 cents.

Agreed 100%. Only one hitch - mushybees stayed that the CI isn’t as experienced nor as high a rank as the person leaving. That would be like if I opened my own dojo as a sandan, and a yondan or rokudan from another dojo transferred to my dojo and was helping teach. I’m the owner and CI even though he outranks me. Not a typical situation, but not impossible either.

But your post reminded me of one I made in another thread not too long ago...

People looking for a teacher put far too much emphasis on the teacher’s personal skill. Watching them is certainly entertaining and inspiring, but if they can’t teach, what’s the point in being their student? My former sensei was a phenomenal karateka. And probably still is. He was a very good teacher too. My current teacher is 35 or so years older now than my former sensei was when I trained under him. My current CI is also putting off another hip replacement. Needless to say, my current CI isn’t as entertaining as my former teacher. But he’s a better teacher. He’s got more depth of knowledge, and he’s analyzed my faults and made great corrections that I can realistically implement. He’s done that better than my former sensei did.

A great MAist is entertaining. A great teacher doesn’t have to entertain; he/she has to get you to mentally AND physically understand the art. D’Amato didn’t have to impress Tyson with his physical skills. Dundee didn’t have to impress Ali. They just had to teach them.

[OneKickWonder]

Just something to think about. Not advice per se but something to think about nonetheless.

What does rank matter?

To me, rank is in some ways a measure of ego. That's not to say that high rank means nothing. Most of the martial artists I aspire to are higher rank than me. Yet some have no rank, because they are in a school that doesn't grade people. They have epic skills but no rank.

In the club I'm in, the CI is 5th Dan in TSD. He has no experience at all in any other style. He is a good man and a good martial artist with a lot to teach. But within our club we also have a second Dan. Who also holds a 2nd Dan in taekwondo, a third Dan in aikido, and no grade at all but experience from seminars in judo and jujitsu and wado. He also has military experience.

I make no judgement. I'll just leave that there for folks to think about.