How many kata / hyung / forms do you know?

[OneKickWonder]

I was thinking about my training to date. So far, I know a total of 11 different forms. Yet I feel like I don't Know any. That is to say, I know them well enough to demonstrate them. I can even recognise a few applications from them. But I don't feel I really know what each movement means. Many of my fellow students are happy to learn the dance. And that's fine. Good for them. But I believe there's a wealth of knowledge embedded in forms. Many say 'hidden', but I don't believe that to be the case. I think they teach movement options. But I sometimes wonder if it would have been more obvious to students of bygone times who might have trained more, and probably fought more, who would see the intention more easily.

So I wonder, how many forms do folk here really know, to a level they are happy with. And do we accept what we're taught, or seek out our own ideas through experimentation?

[Spartacus Maximus]

First, the idea that anything is hidden in kata/forms is mistaken. Nothing is hidden, one just has to know how and where to look. A form is much like an open book. It is valuable only if one knows how to read the words and understands what they mean within their context.

The number of forms a practitioner can do matters much less than how well said practitioner understands them. If learned only as a sequence of movements, kata become meaningless. At least combatively speaking.

They are a valuable training tool and are meant to learn and train principles. Principles which, when thoroughly acquired, allow a person to use any technique from any part in a spontaneous way.

Having said this, each system has a certain number of forms. However it isn’t necessary to know all of them to reach a high skill level. Shorin ryu karate has over 20, yet there are plenty of very competent people who have a great depth of understanding of only half that number. Less is more common.

Most instructors have a specialty for one or two and a more general knowledge of the others. Learning the “choreography” of every form can be done quite quickly. What takes much longer is understanding a form enough to use its content freely and without having to think about it.

[Nidan Melbourne]

There is a lot of information contained in every single kata. You have to be willing to look into each kata that you learn.

Back in the day, you learnt ONE Kata and its associated applications. You didn't move on to another UNTIL you could apply that knowledge in a Self-Defence Situation; and had to be second nature.

But they also expected you to look into the form and figure out how it works for you.

At my club; at 1st Kyu we have to be able to demonstrate what we refer to as Kyogi. Where you have to come up with self-defence routines with at least 1 application from the kata in each.

So for a 2nd Dan to grade to 3rd Dan; you have to demonstrate 25 'Kyogi' from the kata Seisan. Which YOU as the individual have to analyse the kata yourself, and to understand what is going on.

[bushido_man96]

The idea of forms applications came to me very late in my MA career. I'm a TKD stylist, and applications had never been a focus of our forms study.

With that said, there are a lot of resources out there that are worth looking into if you are interested in training forms applications. Of all the training materials out there, I prefer books, and there are quite a few good ones out there (in my opinion, anyway).

If that is the way you want to train with your katas, then I'd recommend finding a willing training partner, and start with one of the forms, and take some time to really start digging into it. It would make for great training, I believe.

[DWx]

Coming from a TKD background bunkai was an alien concept to me. We very much take our applications at face value and concentrate on principles of power and leverage which can then be applied to any movement.

In my style we have 24 forms in total and I "know" 21 of them. That is to say I can go through the movement patterns but I'm still very much learning and honing them.

[MatsuShinshii]

I was thinking about my training to date. So far, I know a total of 11 different forms. Yet I feel like I don't Know any. That is to say, I know them well enough to demonstrate them. I can even recognise a few applications from them. But I don't feel I really know what each movement means. Many of my fellow students are happy to learn the dance. And that's fine. Good for them. But I believe there's a wealth of knowledge embedded in forms. Many say 'hidden', but I don't believe that to be the case. I think they teach movement options. But I sometimes wonder if it would have been more obvious to students of bygone times who might have trained more, and probably fought more, who would see the intention more easily.

So I wonder, how many forms do folk here really know, to a level they are happy with. And do we accept what we're taught, or seek out our own ideas through experimentation?

First off there is nothing hidden about the applications.

To me the number of Kata is less important than understanding each Kata that you have been taught. Most do not go past learning the Kata's movements.

I would ask first if your teacher knows and teaches the applications of the Kata. If not then it depends on your years in the art and your knowledge and understanding of the art. The reason why many call the applications hidden is , one they are not taught them and two they can not see past punch, strike, kick and block.

My suggestion, if your teacher does not teach the applications, is to find an instructor that does. If this is not possible you can discover the applications, to a degree on your own. I hate to even recommend this due to the loose interpretations, but you could look up your Kata and watch what others interpretations are for the applications. If you do this remember that there are two rules to follow; must be efficient and must have the potential to end the fight. Just because it looks good in slow motion doesn't mean it will be effective against a live opponent in a real fight.

Test them against a compliant Uke first and after you get the movements and mechanics down you need to transition into a more non-compliant Uke to find out if it actually works for you.

Good luck.

[sensei8]

While the word "hidden" raises many MA eyebrows, and to that extent, I can understand the raised eyebrow. It's true, there's NO such thing, well, there shouldn't be, anything "hidden". However, I've taught my students that while there's nothing "hidden", whatsoever, there's the assumptions that said movement in said Kata is a block, for example, and the raised eyebrow lifts up even more so when they learn the many things that a block isn't.

To the inexperienced, that, whichever that might be, is "hidden", however, those with experience know that there's no such thing as "hidden", just unlearned, for the moment.

Those are "hidden", I suppose, because to a beginner, to any student, learning that said block isn't a block like they had imagined it, that revealed technique wasn't "hidden", because it has been there for quite along time...and the truth shall set the student free...assumption is the mother of oops, and my bad!!

How many kata's do I know?? More than I should and/or want to know!! It's not the quantity, but it's the quality!! Imho, any Karate school must teach Bunkai, if not, then that school isn't teaching anything of value.

Edited February 22, 2018 by sensei8

[OneKickWonder]

Hi all. I think I might not have explained my point very well

I know that nothing is hidden in forms. What I was really wondering, given that forms appear to just keep giving, is at what point do we decide that we 'know' them?

To explain what I mean, the very first one I learned, a very basic form, is kind of considered outwardly as nothing more than teaching turns and transitions between basic stances. Yet even now I still keep seeing things in there that I'd previously missed. For example I discovered that if I don't do the turns, but do the footwork and hip action of the turns but in a straight line, then we instantly see the makings of leg sweeps and hammer fist strikes etc. All in a very basic form.

I feel sure that I'll find more information it over time.

Likewise the later forms also keep revealing things. Sometimes I see awesome things, sometimes I repeat a movement that I've done many times and try to imagine opponents in front, behind, to the sides, with or without weapons, striking or grabbing, yet still fail to visualise an application. I know it will come in time.

So in my example, clearly I don't yet truly know my later forms. But as in the case of the earlier ones, where I keep seeing many applications for every move, can I say I know them?

I'm not really looking for the impossible, for someone to tell me whether or not I know it. It's more a rhetorical question to stimulate discussion about different views on what forms mean to each of us.

[Spartacus Maximus]

A truly dedicated practitioner may never be completely satisfied and continuously look for anything new of different within even the simplest kata. There is, after all, always new aspects or concepts to develop. However, a good benchmark might be whether or not one has a good grasp of a kata’s principles and can easily apply its basic techniques. That would be a good start.

[MatsuShinshii]

Hi all. I think I might not have explained my point very well

I know that nothing is hidden in forms. What I was really wondering, given that forms appear to just keep giving, is at what point do we decide that we 'know' them?

Do you have a life time??????

If you have read about the history you might have come across quotes from the old practitioners stating that they studied a Kata for as little as 3 to 7 years before being allowed to learn a new Kata and as much as a life time to understand them.

If you're asking when you know everything about a Kata, it depends on which Kata. Some Kata only contain so many applications, others like Naihanchi contain a life time of study.

To explain what I mean, the very first one I learned, a very basic form, is kind of considered outwardly as nothing more than teaching turns and transitions between basic stances. Yet even now I still keep seeing things in there that I'd previously missed. For example I discovered that if I don't do the turns, but do the footwork and hip action of the turns but in a straight line, then we instantly see the makings of leg sweeps and hammer fist strikes etc. All in a very basic form.

I feel sure that I'll find more information it over time.

Again it will come in time and after years and years of experience and practice.

Likewise the later forms also keep revealing things. Sometimes I see awesome things, sometimes I repeat a movement that I've done many times and try to imagine opponents in front, behind, to the sides, with or without weapons, striking or grabbing, yet still fail to visualise an application. I know it will come in time.

Look at the individual posture or sequence of postures for a clue. The one mistake most make is taking the Kata literally. It can in some instances be taken very literally but the thing to focus on is the individual or a group of postures to find the answers.

I'm not really looking for the impossible, for someone to tell me whether or not I know it. It's more a rhetorical question to stimulate discussion about different views on what forms mean to each of us.

After 40 years I can honestly say you will think you have discovered all there is to know and one day you'll realize another application. It's never ending if you're truly looking at and studying the Kata.