Hand chambered to the hip?

[Luther unleashed]

Somewhere around 1990 for my instructor taught me the reason for bringing your hand back to the hip in traditional Arts. I realize that some martial arts do not bring them all the way to the hip because they place it near the ribs or closer to the arm pit but it does not change the application/reasoning! Technically I placed mine typically just above the hip or just at the base of the ribs but again this is not what the post is about.

At this point I have learned a tremendous amount of applications to traditional martial arts and I find that most people overlook the most basic thing that I learned as a white belt and I believe in strongly. I learned it in a Tae Kwon Do school no less, which TKD is not typically known for having a tremendous amount of applications, not in a sense of how often Karate practitioners practice them anyways. It’s was a traditional TKD school however which relates VERY closely to Tang Soo Do, which relates VERY closely to Shotokan which makes sense.

At any rate I’m not going to give it away until I get some feedback from everybody because I would like to see if anybody nails this concept. As always I appreciate everybody’s input.

[Karate_John]

I'm guessing the answer you are looking for is self defense positioning? Reasoning is because most fights start with hands lowered, the punch from the hip would be faster, then putting your arms to a guard first then punching...

[Luther unleashed]

I'm guessing the answer you are looking for is self defense positioning? Reasoning is because most fights start with hands lowered, the punch from the hip would be faster, then putting your arms to a guard first then punching...

I love topics like these because I have never heard this and I think it’s a great biproduct of the technique.

In short however I’m not exactly talking about self-defense but in a way I am because it is the reason we practice most of these techniques. Basically I just want everybody’s answer to what predominant reason they believe they were taught to chamber the hand near the hip/ribs!

[MatsuShinshii]

You are referring to what the Japanese call Hikite and the Okinawans call Fichidi. We would call it the pulling hand.

The so called chambered hand is used to pull the opponent or control the opponent. Most think this is only to balance the body when striking, however the hand/arm is not stagnant. It is used to pull or control the opponent so that you can effect a finishing strike.

Is this what you are referring to?

[JR 137]

There was a thread on this not too long ago in the karate section.

I view the hand on the hip as an obvious example of the “art” in martial arts. The hand on the hip can be many things; it all depends on the practitioner’s interpretation(s)...

It can be a great way to drop your guard and leave yourself open for a clean headshot

It can be used as a push/pull method to generate power

It can represent pulling your opponent’s arm or any other body part

It can represent holding said body part

It can be used to teach and/or practice basic textbook punching

Any great work of art has multiple interpretations and meanings on many levels, ranging from simple to highly complex. Some interpretations are half baked and pretty much flat-out wrong, others are simple yet highly practical, some are way too imaginative and impractical, and most fall somewhere in several of those camps. Karate and the like are great works of art and fall easily under this line of thinking.

The hand on the hip has literal fighting applications AND strictly training (non-fighting) applications. Note I’m not saying spiritual applications when I say non-fighting.

It’s no different than asking why traditional karate (and related arts) use two-handed blocks. During a traditional low block, why does the non-blocking arm arm go straight down the middle with a closed fist during the “wind-up” phase (for a lack of a better phrase), and go to the chambered position during the execution phase of the block? I’ve seen several interpretations/applications. Most make very good sense to me.

[Luther unleashed]

There was a thread on this not too long ago in the karate section.

I view the hand on the hip as an obvious example of the “art” in martial arts. The hand on the hip can be many things; it all depends on the practitioner’s interpretation(s)...

It can be a great way to drop your guard and leave yourself open for a clean headshot

It can be used as a push/pull method to generate power

It can represent pulling your opponent’s arm or any other body part

It can represent holding said body part

It can be used to teach and/or practice basic textbook punching

Any great work of art has multiple interpretations and meanings on many levels, ranging from simple to highly complex. Some interpretations are half baked and pretty much flat-out wrong, others are simple yet highly practical, some are way too imaginative and impractical, and most fall somewhere in several of those camps. Karate and the like are great works of art and fall easily under this line of thinking.

The hand on the hip has literal fighting applications AND strictly training (non-fighting) applications. Note I’m not saying spiritual applications when I say non-fighting.

It’s no different than asking why traditional karate (and related arts) use two-handed blocks. During a traditional low block, why does the non-blocking arm arm go straight down the middle with a closed fist during the “wind-up” phase (for a lack of a better phrase), and go to the chambered position during the execution phase of the block? I’ve seen several interpretations/applications. Most make very good sense to me.

 

 

The first suggestion (aside from dropping leaving yourself open) which suggests power generated from pushing and pulling is what I speak of.

 

The most common explanation I hear is what Matsushinishii speaks about above “grabbing your opponent with the pulling hand. This involves most modern applications. In Hung Gar Kung Fu they have a saying “never return empty handed” which is a similar concept. I teach this often BUT I think the power generation concept gets lost in its simplicity. For many of my early years I thought this was the only purpose.

 

There are a great deal of teachniqes which involve blasting forward which would make the pulling hand have a hard time pulling while the body is moving forward. As far as leaving yourself open I agree. As a teacher I probably tell students more then anything “keep your hands up” when sparring, or even kicking/training etc. however, have you ever seen Connor Mcgreggor fight? I pick at him while he fights (as if he needs my advice) “oh my lord, put your hands up” because he uses distance and movement as well as a good distancing jab more then hands up to protect himself. Loyoto Machida is another guy who often leaves himself open because of traditional techniques. Often to the untrained eye he looks sloppy as if he hasn’t been taught to keep his hands up, but there’s a great video out there showing his use of these techniques side by side to clips of Karateka executing their movements. It’s a nice eye opener to the more novice martial artist for sure. There’s a time and a place for everything I guess.

 

As for power it was explained to me this way. Imagine you are in the middle of the reverse punch movement (one hand punching and the other pulling). As the punching hand reaches the end of its course, so does the pulling hand. As this happens they work together. Now as the punching hand makes contact there is resistance. In theory, because you have practiced your punches 1000’s of times, as the punching hand slows and strikes, the pulling hand works harder to “keep up” as it’s used to. If the resistance in the punching hand slows it down, your bodies muscle memory should push the punching hand harder to keep up with the pulling hand. This was explained to me as centrifugal force, although I don’t know of that completely accurate if you look at the definition of centrifugal force but either way I believe in this theory and I practice with this in mind.

 

Don’t know if I’m explaining it well because I feel it’s harder to explain without showing but I think you guys get what I’m trying to say here.

 

Thoughts? Been taught this? Useful?

[Wastelander]

I was originally taught the "push/pull" mechanics idea for hikite, and have come across many people teaching it since. While I understand how it can help emphasize the body rotation needed to generate power, I also don't find it to be necessary for that purpose. Boxers get plenty of torque on their punches without it, for example, and generally punch harder than most (though not all, obviously) karateka. I just don't see that hikite teaches or develops power generation any better than other methods. What it DOES do, though, is control the opponent far better than keeping your guard up. It also allows you to withdraw your hand if it is entangled with your opponent's arms, which can sometimes happen, so that you can strike again. Those are my two primary uses for it.

[Luther unleashed]

I was originally taught the "push/pull" mechanics idea for hikite, and have come across many people teaching it since. While I understand how it can help emphasize the body rotation needed to generate power, I also don't find it to be necessary for that purpose. Boxers get plenty of torque on their punches without it, for example, and generally punch harder than most (though not all, obviously) karateka. I just don't see that hikite teaches or develops power generation any better than other methods. What it DOES do, though, is control the opponent far better than keeping your guard up. It also allows you to withdraw your hand if it is entangled with your opponent's arms, which can sometimes happen, so that you can strike again. Those are my two primary uses for it.

I respect your opinion but disagree a great deal. I do agree it’s not always needed just as you pointed out people hitting hard without full body rotation. However I was also taught to perform a roundhouse with my heel pointing at the target for maximum power, because of the hip rotation. Obviously it’s not always needed but can be very effective, and this is how I see the reverse punch.

Where I really disagree is when you say it doesn’t generate power better then other methods, I mean I agree that it’s true, but I disagree with you throwing it out based on this. Perhapse the methods you use to generate power with your hips in your style aren’t any better then other methods as well but you certainly don’t disregard them as very useful!

As I said I learned and tech many techniques involving movement of the feel and whole body where using the pulling hand to control or even pull, won’t be as effective. At any rate, I believe this was a real intent in this technique that you have echoed it being overlooked. This was kind of my point in my post, so not shocking.

Hope Mr Poage is ok, I know he’s not, but I hope he will be! Take care.

[Wastelander]

I was originally taught the "push/pull" mechanics idea for hikite, and have come across many people teaching it since. While I understand how it can help emphasize the body rotation needed to generate power, I also don't find it to be necessary for that purpose. Boxers get plenty of torque on their punches without it, for example, and generally punch harder than most (though not all, obviously) karateka. I just don't see that hikite teaches or develops power generation any better than other methods. What it DOES do, though, is control the opponent far better than keeping your guard up. It also allows you to withdraw your hand if it is entangled with your opponent's arms, which can sometimes happen, so that you can strike again. Those are my two primary uses for it.

I respect your opinion but disagree a great deal. I do agree it’s not always needed just as you pointed out people hitting hard without full body rotation. However I was also taught to perform a roundhouse with my heel pointing at the target for maximum power, because of the hip rotation. Obviously it’s not always needed but can be very effective, and this is how I see the reverse punch.

Where I really disagree is when you say it doesn’t generate power better then other methods, I mean I agree that it’s true, but I disagree with you throwing it out based on this. Perhapse the methods you use to generate power with your hips in your style aren’t any better then other methods as well but you certainly don’t disregard them as very useful!

As I said I learned and tech many techniques involving movement of the feel and whole body where using the pulling hand to control or even pull, won’t be as effective. At any rate, I believe this was a real intent in this technique that you have echoed it being overlooked. This was kind of my point in my post, so not shocking.

Hope Mr Poage is ok, I know he’s not, but I hope he will be! Take care.

I didn't mean that the body rotation wasn't important--just that pulling the hand to the hip to accomplish it wasn't necessary. I'm not necessarily "throwing it out," but I don't really emphasize that usage of hikite when I teach. I mention it, but find the other uses to be more useful, so I emphasize those instead. When teaching students to generate power, I'm much more concerned with the legs, hips, core, and shoulders than the hands.

Thanks for the well wishes!

[Luther unleashed]

I was originally taught the "push/pull" mechanics idea for hikite, and have come across many people teaching it since. While I understand how it can help emphasize the body rotation needed to generate power, I also don't find it to be necessary for that purpose. Boxers get plenty of torque on their punches without it, for example, and generally punch harder than most (though not all, obviously) karateka. I just don't see that hikite teaches or develops power generation any better than other methods. What it DOES do, though, is control the opponent far better than keeping your guard up. It also allows you to withdraw your hand if it is entangled with your opponent's arms, which can sometimes happen, so that you can strike again. Those are my two primary uses for it.

I respect your opinion but disagree a great deal. I do agree it’s not always needed just as you pointed out people hitting hard without full body rotation. However I was also taught to perform a roundhouse with my heel pointing at the target for maximum power, because of the hip rotation. Obviously it’s not always needed but can be very effective, and this is how I see the reverse punch.

Where I really disagree is when you say it doesn’t generate power better then other methods, I mean I agree that it’s true, but I disagree with you throwing it out based on this. Perhapse the methods you use to generate power with your hips in your style aren’t any better then other methods as well but you certainly don’t disregard them as very useful!

As I said I learned and tech many techniques involving movement of the feel and whole body where using the pulling hand to control or even pull, won’t be as effective. At any rate, I believe this was a real intent in this technique that you have echoed it being overlooked. This was kind of my point in my post, so not shocking.

Hope Mr Poage is ok, I know he’s not, but I hope he will be! Take care.

I didn't mean that the body rotation wasn't important--just that pulling the hand to the hip to accomplish it wasn't necessary. I'm not necessarily "throwing it out," but I don't really emphasize that usage of hikite when I teach. I mention it, but find the other uses to be more useful, so I emphasize those instead. When teaching students to generate power, I'm much more concerned with the legs, hips, core, and shoulders than the hands.

Thanks for the well wishes!

I hear you. In terms of a fight is use mostly a higher hands like a boxer anyways but there are some attacks that I practice in which the traditional approach suits me. In most cases I would throw out traditional techniques that produce power for overall protection as in a box in guard.

I was just interested in seeing what the overall view was on this. As I said for most of the 90s I saw these techniques as a way to generate power and it wasn’t until I got into Tang Soo Do techniques that I really learned applications because it’s application heavy just as most Karate styles are.