It's wrong for men to hit women

[conrad665]

I hope it is O.K. to revive an old topic. Well, I didn't know such a phenomenon even existed. I never came across a guy who rejected sparring with me or went easy on me because I am a woman. Until yesterday.

This guy just paired up with me and tried a few techniques, then said "I cannot hit women, it is my life philosophy" and stopped. Never in my life have I felt more humiliated. He simply meant that no matter how hard I train, I will never be a worthy opponent of him because of my gender. It is an exceptional example of male chauvinism. What I learnt during the years I spent in martial arts is that what matters is how hard you train and how willing you are to learn, and how well you can apply a technique. We do the same training, we spend the same amount of effort in the dojo, regardless of gender.

And right, breasts are not that delicate I was hit several times in the chest area and it never bothered me. A hit in the solar plexus is much more efficient.

[JR 137]

I hope it is O.K. to revive an old topic. Well, I didn't know such a phenomenon even existed. I never came across a guy who rejected sparring with me or went easy on me because I am a woman. Until yesterday.

This guy just paired up with me and tried a few techniques, then said "I cannot hit women, it is my life philosophy" and stopped. Never in my life have I felt more humiliated. He simply meant that no matter how hard I train, I will never be a worthy opponent of him because of my gender. It is an exceptional example of male chauvinism. What I learnt during the years I spent in martial arts is that what matters is how hard you train and how willing you are to learn, and how well you can apply a technique. We do the same training, we spend the same amount of effort in the dojo, regardless of gender.

And right, breasts are not that delicate I was hit several times in the chest area and it never bothered me. A hit in the solar plexus is much more efficient.

It’s quite alright to revive an old thread if you have relevant information. Your post is completely relevant and I’m personally thankful you made the post.

As a man, I understand where he’s coming from. I don’t agree with him not hitting you in sparring/drilling, but I understand.

I also understand why you’re feeling the way you’re feeling, and I completely agree with you.

I don’t know you nor him, but the little I know from your post, I can only say this...

You shouldn’t take it personally. He’s most likely doing and saying what he was raised to say and do. And most likely so was his father, grandfather, etc. I’d imagine it’s quite hard not to take that personally, especially factoring in what you said, but this is his issue to work on. My advice is to speak with your teacher. He/she should address this student, and he/she should know how you feel. And unless you’re the only female student at the dojo, I’m sure the other women feel the same way as you do or will when they’re paired up with him. If you stay quiet, your teacher may never know and won’t be able to fix it.

[Bulltahr]

I'm with JR on this one too. Being a guy we were raised to not hit women, even today in society we are still told it's wrong. Physical beef between 2 guys or 2 girls and it's pretty accepted, but the moment a guy hits a woman, regardless of the provocation society deems him to be a thug, we even have the charge in law "Male assaults female" . So please understand that in his mind he is being respectful and obliviously has not made the adjustment from life outside to training inside the dojo. Took me a while to adjust myself and I'm still not completely comfortable with it. Look at it as an opportunity to help him make the adjustment.

[RW]

I have a hard "don't hit women" rule. But here's the thing: Sparring doesn't count as "hitting women".

They're simply fellow martial arts students, who signed in for this, who want to spar and train, and who would probably get mad at me for not taking them seriously and/or hindering their training.

I am also not hitting them, technically speaking. We're wearing protective gear. Face shots are not allowed. We're not going full contact (e.g. kyokushin style or muay thai match style). This is simply practicing a martial art.

As far as partner drills go, we never go 100%, it's more like, 50%, but we also adjust depending on the partner, I mean, you're not going to hit a 70 year old man with the same strength that you would strike a 25 year old, right? Well if it's a woman, it makes sense to adjust too. If it turns out that she can take it and wants more power, so be it, I'll use 50% like I do with guys.

About breasts... yes that's an issue. I know by experience they're not that delicate, I've accidentally hit someone in the chest before and she just brushed it off.

We also do thai clinch and knee drills with a kick shield and for some reason some women have the kick shield back right in front of their chest (while I am clinching and ready to knee). You can tell that the kick shield is hitting hard against their breasts, but they still keep it there, rather than lowering the shield to their belly or whatever.

In the same drill a woman ended kneeing a guy in the groin and... let's just say he went home rather than finishing the class. I'd love to say that woman is clumsy but she hits guys down there fairly often, so I don't know.

[conrad665]

Thanks for all your replies. I feel a bit better now, learning men have similar concerns. I will not take it personally. I can understand how a man can feel about hitting a woman in real life. It is a pity that in today's society, women are usually vulnerable to this kind of abuse, so I support protection of women by laws. I myself wouldn't hit a woman who does not practice martial arts, or a kid, or an elderly person. I wouldn't hit a man, either, as long as it is not a life and death situation. Why hurt someone when it is possible not to? However, being in the dojo is a totally different thing. Indeed, in real life, I think that guy could take me down with a single blow if he wanted. However, in the dojo, we must train and help each other to get better at what we learn. Everyone has a thing or two to learn from each other. Surely, a man may have some concerns over whether his technique would hurt his female opponent. I spar with kids and women, too, and the key point here is to *adjust* the technique so that no one will get hurt, instead of humiliating the opponent.

I talked to him over this issue and expressed my thoughts, but he said there is nothing he can do about it and he will continue to live by his code, etc. The only thing I can do at this point is not to pair up with him again. I still think he is a male chauvinist.

[JR 137]

Thanks for all your replies. I feel a bit better now, learning men have similar concerns. I will not take it personally. I can understand how a man can feel about hitting a woman in real life. It is a pity that in today's society, women are usually vulnerable to this kind of abuse, so I support protection of women by laws. I myself wouldn't hit a woman who does not practice martial arts, or a kid, or an elderly person. I wouldn't hit a man, either, as long as it is not a life and death situation. Why hurt someone when it is possible not to? However, being in the dojo is a totally different thing. Indeed, in real life, I think that guy could take me down with a single blow if he wanted. However, in the dojo, we must train and help each other to get better at what we learn. Everyone has a thing or two to learn from each other. Surely, a man may have some concerns over whether his technique would hurt his female opponent. I spar with kids and women, too, and the key point here is to *adjust* the technique so that no one will get hurt, instead of humiliating the opponent.

I talked to him over this issue and expressed my thoughts, but he said there is nothing he can do about it and he will continue to live by his code, etc. The only thing I can do at this point is not to pair up with him again. I still think he is a male chauvinist.

He may very well be a male chauvinist. If that’s the case, keep pairing up with someone else. It’s his issue to deal with, you don’t have to change anyone.

You made a great point - we all need to adjust what we’re doing depending on who we’re partnered with. While I don’t spar with the younger ones very often, I have to go easier with them. There are a few women who I go easier with. There are also adult men who I go easier with. Then there are people with injuries and/or medical issues. To go all out with everyone doesn’t do anyone any good.

Sparring partners are exactly that - partners. You should push your partner to work hard and keep him/her out of their comfort zone. Completely dominating and overwhelming them doesn’t do them any good, and it doesn’t do you much good either. I typically spar with two 3rd dans and a 4th dan on Tuesday nights. I’m a 1st kyu. They go at me, and I go right back at them. But I know they’re not going as hard as they possibly can. They’re pushing me hard enough to improve. When I get stupid and think I can keep up with everything they’ve got, I’m reminded of how far off I am during stuff like promotional tests. I just tested for 1st kyu last Monday night. They came at me far harder that night than they consistently do on Tuesday nights, that’s for sure. And I know they have more than they gave me that night.

You go as hard as your partner can handle and walk away learning and improving. Some people can’t handle my 50%, and I wouldn’t be able to handle others’ 50%. The point is for everyone to work together and improve, not to walk in and dominate everyone in sight. Male, female, child, adult, injured, in perfect health; everyone should be reasonably pushed to their own individual limits. Just because I’m a man doesn’t mean every woman’s limits are significantly lower than mine. In fact, my limits are significantly lower than several women I train alongside.

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for all your replies. I feel a bit better now, learning men have similar concerns. I will not take it personally. I can understand how a man can feel about hitting a woman in real life. It is a pity that in today's society, women are usually vulnerable to this kind of abuse, so I support protection of women by laws. I myself wouldn't hit a woman who does not practice martial arts, or a kid, or an elderly person. I wouldn't hit a man, either, as long as it is not a life and death situation. Why hurt someone when it is possible not to? However, being in the dojo is a totally different thing. Indeed, in real life, I think that guy could take me down with a single blow if he wanted. However, in the dojo, we must train and help each other to get better at what we learn. Everyone has a thing or two to learn from each other. Surely, a man may have some concerns over whether his technique would hurt his female opponent. I spar with kids and women, too, and the key point here is to *adjust* the technique so that no one will get hurt, instead of humiliating the opponent.

I talked to him over this issue and expressed my thoughts, but he said there is nothing he can do about it and he will continue to live by his code, etc. The only thing I can do at this point is not to pair up with him again. I still think he is a male chauvinist.

He may very well be a male chauvinist. If that’s the case, keep pairing up with someone else. It’s his issue to deal with, you don’t have to change anyone.

You made a great point - we all need to adjust what we’re doing depending on who we’re partnered with. While I don’t spar with the younger ones very often, I have to go easier with them. There are a few women who I go easier with. There are also adult men who I go easier with. Then there are people with injuries and/or medical issues. To go all out with everyone doesn’t do anyone any good.

Sparring partners are exactly that - partners. You should push your partner to work hard and keep him/her out of their comfort zone. Completely dominating and overwhelming them doesn’t do them any good, and it doesn’t do you much good either. I typically spar with two 3rd dans and a 4th dan on Tuesday nights. I’m a 1st kyu. They go at me, and I go right back at them. But I know they’re not going as hard as they possibly can. They’re pushing me hard enough to improve. When I get stupid and think I can keep up with everything they’ve got, I’m reminded of how far off I am during stuff like promotional tests. I just tested for 1st kyu last Monday night. They came at me far harder that night than they consistently do on Tuesday nights, that’s for sure. And I know they have more than they gave me that night.

You go as hard as your partner can handle and walk away learning and improving. Some people can’t handle my 50%, and I wouldn’t be able to handle others’ 50%. The point is for everyone to work together and improve, not to walk in and dominate everyone in sight. Male, female, child, adult, injured, in perfect health; everyone should be reasonably pushed to their own individual limits. Just because I’m a man doesn’t mean every woman’s limits are significantly lower than mine. In fact, my limits are significantly lower than several women I train alongside.

I think you might be going a bit rough by claiming he's a chauvinist. He was probably just raised that way, and he sticks to it. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. If he's been raised to never raise a hand to a woman, no matter the circumstance, then it probably translates to anything he does. He may just never feel comfortable with a high level of contact with a female, for fear of causing injury by accident. But who knows...

What you could consider is speaking to you instructor about it, and maybe the three of you sitting down and hashing things out. It might help, or it might not. In the end, you should probably respect his wishes as much as he respects yours.

[JR 137]

In self defense I would think its appropriate especially if there was intent for harm. But of course the goal of a gentlemen is to be a gentlemen a much as possible. Females are not as fragile as they were in the old days. Females are in all kind of sports including MMA and can probably demolish the average joe. Its about protecting yourself anyway possible from harm.

I agree with what you’re saying. The way I feel about it a woman attacked me is I’m going to more or less do the same appropriate thing I’d do to anyone else, man, woman or child. If the person is truly smaller and weaker than I am and poses minimal threat, I’m going to use the bare minimum force to stop the nonsense. That would most likely be a generic restraint of some sort. If I was attacked by a woman who could do me serious harm, I’d defend myself according to the circumstances. A last resort would be hitting, but if I had no other choice, then I’d do whatever I need to do. I’m not taking on a full-fledged beating without fighting back.

The flip side of men not hitting women and that being the norm in most civilized places is that women know this and a few (very few) are willing to take full advantage of that. It happened to me around 6th grade or so. I girl who was several years older and significantly bigger than me decided to punch me in the face several times and kick me in the groin a few times. I didn’t hit back. Looking back as an adult, I think maybe I should have. But I know what would’ve happened; her father would’ve been at my door challenging my father to a fight because I hit his daughter. Or her brother and the other guys there would’ve stepped in and beat me up for hitting her.

Not much different nowadays. You won’t have the father’s going at it at our age, but if a woman did the same thing to me today and I hit back, practically any guy walking down the street would step in.

Brings up another incident that happened several years back. There was a couple arguing in front of their house, across the street from mine. She started hitting him, he finally had enough and hit back. It all fairness to him, the situation dictated that response. My brother and I happened to be outside and saw it all go down. It happened pretty quickly. Once we saw him retaliate, we both ran over, put him on the ground and held him there. How’d she react? She kicked him in the face while screaming stuff like “that’s what you get for hitting a woman.” I looked at her and said “if you do that again, I’m going to let him up. Leave now.” She got the hint. The police showed up as she was going back into the house. When I told them what happened (I went to high school with both cops), I made sure I told them exactly what she did. No idea how that played out with the police, as I went home disgusted. In hindsight, I honestly question why I intervened.

No matter what the circumstances, men are at a huge disadvantage. Defend yourself, and you’re a guy who beats up on women. No one’s going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Don’t defend yourself, and you could get seriously hurt. The only way it’s genuinely acceptable is if everyone knows she came at you with a truly deadly weapon.

Sorry, just my honest thoughts here.

Edit: This is actual self defense. The dojo is a completely different animal altogether.

[Chunmonchek]

In a perfect world, there would be no "men" or "women" on the floor, only juniors and seniors. My dojo is a bit unusual. I have about 10 students, the majority of which have been with me for over 20 years and are yudansha. About half of them are women...but not when in gi. If you take it easy on any of my yudansha, they tend to take it as an insult, and will hit you harder and faster until you get the message.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Chunmonchek

[conrad665]

Thanks for all your replies. I feel a bit better now, learning men have similar concerns. I will not take it personally. I can understand how a man can feel about hitting a woman in real life. It is a pity that in today's society, women are usually vulnerable to this kind of abuse, so I support protection of women by laws. I myself wouldn't hit a woman who does not practice martial arts, or a kid, or an elderly person. I wouldn't hit a man, either, as long as it is not a life and death situation. Why hurt someone when it is possible not to? However, being in the dojo is a totally different thing. Indeed, in real life, I think that guy could take me down with a single blow if he wanted. However, in the dojo, we must train and help each other to get better at what we learn. Everyone has a thing or two to learn from each other. Surely, a man may have some concerns over whether his technique would hurt his female opponent. I spar with kids and women, too, and the key point here is to *adjust* the technique so that no one will get hurt, instead of humiliating the opponent.

I talked to him over this issue and expressed my thoughts, but he said there is nothing he can do about it and he will continue to live by his code, etc. The only thing I can do at this point is not to pair up with him again. I still think he is a male chauvinist.

He may very well be a male chauvinist. If that’s the case, keep pairing up with someone else. It’s his issue to deal with, you don’t have to change anyone.

You made a great point - we all need to adjust what we’re doing depending on who we’re partnered with. While I don’t spar with the younger ones very often, I have to go easier with them. There are a few women who I go easier with. There are also adult men who I go easier with. Then there are people with injuries and/or medical issues. To go all out with everyone doesn’t do anyone any good.

Sparring partners are exactly that - partners. You should push your partner to work hard and keep him/her out of their comfort zone. Completely dominating and overwhelming them doesn’t do them any good, and it doesn’t do you much good either. I typically spar with two 3rd dans and a 4th dan on Tuesday nights. I’m a 1st kyu. They go at me, and I go right back at them. But I know they’re not going as hard as they possibly can. They’re pushing me hard enough to improve. When I get stupid and think I can keep up with everything they’ve got, I’m reminded of how far off I am during stuff like promotional tests. I just tested for 1st kyu last Monday night. They came at me far harder that night than they consistently do on Tuesday nights, that’s for sure. And I know they have more than they gave me that night.

You go as hard as your partner can handle and walk away learning and improving. Some people can’t handle my 50%, and I wouldn’t be able to handle others’ 50%. The point is for everyone to work together and improve, not to walk in and dominate everyone in sight. Male, female, child, adult, injured, in perfect health; everyone should be reasonably pushed to their own individual limits. Just because I’m a man doesn’t mean every woman’s limits are significantly lower than mine. In fact, my limits are significantly lower than several women I train alongside.

I think you might be going a bit rough by claiming he's a chauvinist. He was probably just raised that way, and he sticks to it. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. If he's been raised to never raise a hand to a woman, no matter the circumstance, then it probably translates to anything he does. He may just never feel comfortable with a high level of contact with a female, for fear of causing injury by accident. But who knows...

What you could consider is speaking to you instructor about it, and maybe the three of you sitting down and hashing things out. It might help, or it might not. In the end, you should probably respect his wishes as much as he respects yours.

Maybe I am, but this was how I felt when he refused to spar with me because I am a woman. I mean, I thought he was too proud of 'his manly strength' and it doesn't matter for him how good a female opponent is. I can say I am tougher than many of the women I sparred so far, and as Chunmonchek said, I took it as an insult.

He spoke to me again and apologized, accepted what he said was rude and repeated he just ---can't punch women. He said the same thing as you, bushido_man96, that is, he was raised and programmed that way. I now can judge him less harshly, but still, I do not want an opponent who rejects sparring completely, instead of adjusting his technique and trying to learn how to control his technique. Sparring with this guy will not improve me in any way, nor him, so it is better not to do it again.

And it is shocking to hear that there are women that abuse gentlemen as JR 137 mentioned. Hope there are only a few of them around.