Kata, why do some schools ignore all that it has to offer?

[username19853]

Since I discovered bunkai, I have questions every single class that I attend. It's because if I perform a move in a Kata, and I don't know why I'm performing it, then I can't stop thinking about it. I love just doing Kata, but I need a balance of doing the Kata and practicing what the moves in a Kata actually are. I also see many schools insisting that a gedan barai is a low block for a kick and nothing else. I think it could be many things. Some schools don't even bother covering that.

Personally, I would want my students to understand what they're doing and why they're doing it. My Sensei has done a spectacular job at keeping his students educated on this. I understand some schools don't explain Kata, they just do it to maintain the tradition of their style. I trained at a Chito Ryu place like this that had some self defense techniques, completely unrelated to their Kata.

ive been told by some to only worry about the Kata and the self defense will just come with it, but I feel practicing the self defense applications are equally as important (if self defense is in your interest).

What are your thoughts on this?

[LLLEARNER]

As a bunkai newbie myself, we all seem to get the very basic applications of kata. Unfortunately, the very basic are too simple and while important, not deep enough knowledge wise. They tend to be too literal.

The depth of kata knowledge really begins to get better when you understand that bunkai can deviate from the strict kata routine. A jodan uke becomes a grab, or gedan barai becomes a leg scoop or grab which is followed by a sweep of the other leg.

For me, it is better to understand the concepts of something rather than just the rote memorization.

As far as applying self defense one has to practice with intent and conscience thought about the applications, rather than just focusing on what techniques follows the next. It is important to be strict about correct practice and form though. Without focusing on correct form, the actual application would suffer.

My method is to get the techniques correct. Then my mind can focus on application while practicing kata.

Ian Abernathy has some good bunkai YouTube videos as well as Kanazawa.

Even these are not the end all and be all. There is a lot that can be self-discovered (for want of a better term).

[Wastelander]

I find that the vast majority of people who say that knowledge of the applications comes naturally through practicing the kata have no idea how to apply the kata. I'm sure there are some out there who were able to do that, but I would say that most people do not get revelations on kata application without putting conscious, structured thought into it, and they certainly don't develop the skill necessary to apply the techniques under pressure by practicing the solo form. There are also people out there who might know applications, but insist on holding them back until a certain rank, or holding them back entirely and telling their students to figure it out themselves. I do not find that to be helpful for karate, or karateka. On the other hand, there are instructors out there who teach applications, but don't teach the underlying concepts, or how a student could have found that application by following certain guidelines, so the students may be able to repeat applications by rote, but not figure out alternatives for themselves. I don't think that is helpful, either, although it does at least give students SOMETHING to work with.

The kata give you a method of practicing the applications without a partner, which has a number of benefits. First, and most obviously, you don't need a partner for it, which means you can practice at any time. Second, it means you do not have to have concern for a partner's safety, so techniques you would normally have to do carefully, slowly, or incompletely, can be done full speed, full power, with full intent. Third, it gives you a method of practicing the ideal form and body mechanics to make the technique work as efficiently as possible, without having to make adjustments for an opponent's body weight, height, strength, etc.

I think asking your Sensei for applications (if they know them) is a great idea, as is seeking out seminars from other instructors in various arts, and looking at examples in books and videos to bring back to your own training. This should all be building toward a conceptual approach to karate and the application of its kata, though, and you should work to build an understanding of how kata can be broken down and analyzed for potential applications.

[Nidan Melbourne]

I do believe knowing the bunkai to each kata is very important. And that there is more than just one explanation of its potential application.

My club doesn't have a set bunkai for the Taikyoku Series, but we do get our students to figure out how to apply them. But we do have set Bunkai for Gekesai Dai Ich up.

In addition to Bunkai, we have Kyogi which are self defence routines which explain our Kata. And they had to be simple, effective and suitable to you as a person.

[sensei8]

Withholding anything from a student is akin to not teaching effectiveness across the board. I don't mean withholding anything just for the sake of withholding, but, for example, one has to learn how to crawl before one can run.

I'd not be willing to teach Ikkyu material to a Jukyu student because it's inappropriate, as well as irresponsible, to do so. Can't build a house from the roof down!!

To not teach any, or very little Bunkai serves no purpose. If there's only Kata in the Karateka's life, and no Bunkai, or the lack thereof, then, that Karateka's life isn't effective across the board.

No Bunkai!! No Kata!! Can't have one without the other, and expect to have a very well rounded Karateka!! After all, the three K's are called the three K's and not the two or one K: Kihon, Kata, Kumite!!

Kata without Bunkai is a wasteful exertion of time and energy!! Kata without Bunkai is just void of emotions!! Kata without Bunkai is an emotionless dance!! Kata without Bunkai is like the engine that has no gas!! Kata without Bunkai is like a car without tires!!

Sure, speak to your CI, by all means concerning any and all of your concerns, just do it respectfully. Not many CI's appreciate being measured by their students. HOWEVER, if it's a cat, it'll meow and purr, and do everything that a cat does, without fail. Kata needs Bunkai and Bunkai needs Kata, without fail!!

No Bunkai, but Kata!! RED FLAG!!

Imho!!

[username19853]

Sensei8 I couldn't agree more! I feel teaching Kata with no bunkai is a huge red flag.

BUT, some dojos practice sport karate, their kumite, as their "bunkai." I think that's how they're able to keep their students. It just baffles me that some karateka are perfectly fine with practicing a very effective self defense system blindly, and never even learning what they could be doing with it. Thank you all for your contributions!!!

[sensei8]

Sensei8 I couldn't agree more! I feel teaching Kata with no bunkai is a huge red flag.

BUT, some dojos practice sport karate, their kumite, as their "bunkai." I think that's how they're able to keep their students. It just baffles me that some karateka are perfectly fine with practicing a very effective self defense system blindly, and never even learning what they could be doing with it. Thank you all for your contributions!!!

However, their Kumite as their Bunkai still puts a huge hole in the well known maxim...Three K's, down to it missing a very key part.

I'm for the Kumite, but it also starves for Kihon and Kata; in equal portions, with not one being more important than the other parts. I'm speaking towards Karate-do, but from a time that seems to be ignored for one reason or another.

I can't learn Kumite effectively without learning some of the tools of the trade, and this is where Kihon, and Kata, play into it wholeheartedly.

Yet, then is the old school that's akin to how dads taught their children how to swim...being thrown into the pool, and it's at that very moment that their children either sink or swim. Cruel, yet effective.

Same with Kumite as the only thing, and as it's own Bunkai. Throw the Jukyu out there with seasoned Karateka's and have at it. Either that student will sink or swim. That too, is cruel, yet effective.

The three K's are a proven maxim that I believe to this very day must be embraced by all Karateka's, or they'll either sink or swim, the hard way, and at times, the impossible way!!

[MatsuShinshii]

Wow, that is a loaded question and a very loaded answer.

Sort answer; they don't know them and have never been taught them or they think it's some super secret thing that can only be taught to the most enlightened student that will some day take over the flock and lead them. Bogus nonsense. There is nothing secret about the applications and they were never meant to be secret or "hidden".

Most instructors do not know or understand the applications of the Kata or know only the basic applications. The likely hood that they know the applications but are not willing to teach them because of whatever nonsensical gooby goop is far fetched. Lets face it most Americans are vain and if they have knowledge that no one else does they usually share it to gain notoriety. Having said that I go back to the fact that they do not know them and their teacher, even if they are from Okinawa, probably doesn't know them.

The reason that the applications are rarely taught in todays Dojo is because of a few factors. One is due to the changes made by Itosu to be able to teach Toudi to school children. Remember that ALL techniques and applications within a Kata have the aim and potential to end the fight and they were developed for combat. You wouldn't want to teach these to children. Some of these techniques and applications were removed and replaced or were disguised as something else. Example: the block (This has been discussed many times so I will not bore you with yet another explanation of why the block is not apart of Toudi but a modern day technique of Karate Do). Another reason is because some of the instructors that taught Americans held back this information or only taught the most basic applications to them. Another is after the art was introduced to Japan it was changed even further and the true applications were lost or ignored in changing the art from a Okinawan/Chinese art to a Japanese art. Most arts that joined the Butokukai changed their curriculum and adopted the changes and thus lost the original intent. This includes Okinawan instructors at the time.

Today some arts are making the effort to re-learn the original applications. This is a noble endeavor. However there are pit falls depending on where they are getting their information. There are many sources out there today and many of them are teaching applications that do not work. Remember we are a society that looks to fill another's need. Whatever sells. And their are those out there that are teaching what looks good but does not work in a real situation unless the opponent will hold still long enough for you to apply it.

So how do you find the true applications (Bunkai)? Observe arts that maintained the original teachings and get an understanding of what the postures in the Kata represent. It may not be the same Kata's that your school/art teaches but you can start to see what certain movements represent and what techniques represent. Another source is researching your arts history. Find out what arts contributed and influenced your art and look at their applications. There are also many that teach practical Bunkai. (I think that is what they are calling it). Abernathy comes to mind. Some of what he teaches is spot on to the original applications and some is not but most are effective and "practical". It is at least a good source to start the understanding process.

And as Wastelander stated: no one that I have ever met just one day understood the meaning of the Kata without first being shown what at least some of the techniques and applications represented. I know in movies a student learns the form and instantly understands how to fight but in the real world this is not going to happen unless your some kind of phenom.

The best way to proof an application is "is it effective" and "could it end the fight". If it does not meet these two criteria then it's not an application or at least not the true original application.

If your school does not teach the applications of the Kata find one that does. If you like your school but want to learn the applications there are ways to achieve that as well.

[MatsuShinshii]

Sensei8 I couldn't agree more! I feel teaching Kata with no bunkai is a huge red flag.

BUT, some dojos practice sport karate, their kumite, as their "bunkai." I think that's how they're able to keep their students. It just baffles me that some karateka are perfectly fine with practicing a very effective self defense system blindly, and never even learning what they could be doing with it. Thank you all for your contributions!!!

However, their Kumite as their Bunkai still puts a huge hole in the well known maxim...Three K's, down to it missing a very key part.

I'm for the Kumite, but it also starves for Kihon and Kata; in equal portions, with not one being more important than the other parts. I'm speaking towards Karate-do, but from a time that seems to be ignored for one reason or another.

I can't learn Kumite effectively without learning some of the tools of the trade, and this is where Kihon, and Kata, play into it wholeheartedly.

Yet, then is the old school that's akin to how dads taught their children how to swim...being thrown into the pool, and it's at that very moment that their children either sink or swim. Cruel, yet effective.

Same with Kumite as the only thing, and as it's own Bunkai. Throw the Jukyu out there with seasoned Karateka's and have at it. Either that student will sink or swim. That too, is cruel, yet effective.

The three K's are a proven maxim that I believe to this very day must be embraced by all Karateka's, or they'll either sink or swim, the hard way, and at times, the impossible way!!

Sensei8,

I have to disagree with you on your statement above. I know we have discussed this before but I do not buy into the three K's as the only way to train or learn to fight. Kihon was never a training methodology, as performed today, in Toudi (Karate). To be honest neither was Kumite as it is performed today.

The way I was taught was minus Kihon and Kumite as it's taught in most schools today. Kihon is an invention of the Japanese not the Okinawan's. Kumite was utilized but again not as it is today.

Kumite today is a hudge pudge of whatever. Ever watched a class and see the students earnestly learning their Kata and then when it comes to Kumite it looks like boxing with a kick or two thrown in for good measure? It doesn't even resemble the art or what is taught. It's ok to forget everything that was taught, just throw some punches and remember to kick a few times. It's not Karate.

If the only way to learn how to fight is to train this way, I would say these are the students that are treading water.

Old school is systematic. It's not akin to getting thrown into the deep end and sink or swim. But we are taught per the Kata and our own creative minds in the way we are able to put techniques and applications together, how to utilize them and how to draw and create from them. This is closer to the way the old Okinawan's were trained than the way most are trained today.

Kihon comes from Kata. Kumite, unless it's the sport, boxing with a few kicks that we see today, comes from Kata. Without Kata you do not have an art to study.

However I respect your view points and agree that the three K's are a systematic way to learn. I am just pointing out that it's not the only or best way. Its a way.

[Alan Armstrong]

This is a very worthwhile topic to discuss; thanks for starting it.

This is my condensed take on this subject:

1.) Learn the kata not just the moves.

2.) Learn the bunkai and the obvious variables associated with all the movements.

3.) Learn the concepts and principles that are hidden that enhance the techniques and movements.

4.) Learn to kumite the way you learned the kata as close to aliveness as possible.

5.) Learn to condition the mind for combat and strategy, battle to attain peace.

6.) Learn to condition the body for combat and strength of character never for ego.

7.) Learn to condition the spirit for calmness, peace and harmony.

8.) Learn to unlearn what is unnecessary in karate, learn to be free from all ignorance; yours, mine and theirs.

9.) Learn from experience, wherever it might be, but do it ethically without unwarranted prejudice.

10.) Learn that learning is intended to be unceasing... a kata is more than its moves... a kata is an instruction book without pictures and words, a kata will never teach you on how to, dodge, bob or weave properly, as everything has its uses and limitations.

Karate schools that use katas, primarily as a way to grade students without bunkai and then continue to kumite students as kick boxers, that also teach and preach martial arts as self defence; then pressure students to compete in sporting events; which is all from my perspective, representative as disjointed karate based on unethical practices.