Karate Dan Katas orders.

[David Miller]

Hello everyone. I just wanted to ask what katas do you do after your 1st dan? I know the ones that you do (well atleast in my school) after you get your first black belt are bassai dai, jion and empi thats all i know. I know all the shotokan katas names but i dont know how to perform them as im just a blue belt. I know that im not suppose to focus on black belt katas and concentrate on my own training but i have been curious for a while now that what katas do you when you are 1st dan then 2nd dan then 3rd all the way to 10th dan? I know it depends on the school but it would be nice to tell me about your own school. (Talking about shotokan style btw). Thanks

[Spartacus Maximus]

First, it should be said that when training one should focus on quality of skills and depth of understanding rather than quantity. The very concept of "dan kata" or "black belt kata" is flawed because the time when kata are taught or the order in which each one is learned depends on whoever is teaching.

In addition to this, even a short kata with few techniques takes a considerable effort and time to understand to the point of being able to apply effectively. This is why the experts and masters of old would spend years training a single kata.

Tte level of each kata is something that was determined around the same time the system of ranks and belts was introduced to karate. Before that, a student would spend a couple of years on fundamentals and basic techniques before being taught whatever kata the teacher knew.

Taking Shorin ryu as an example, as a general rule the kata introduced from shodan and afterwards are usually the oldest and those with the heavier Chinese martial arts influence such as passai, kusanku, chinto and gojushiho. Each dojo is different and each one introduces these kata at a different dan depending on the the teacher, the association and the branch.

Personally passai sho (itosu's kata) was introduced at shodan and kusanku sho is required to nidan. This is in addition to being able to demonstrate a basic understanding and application of all other kata and satisfactory improvement in basic techniques.

[Wastelander]

As Spartacus says, the quantity of kata you know is unimportant, and the order you learn them in isn't necessarily important, either. Sure, you can say that some easier kata build up to more complicated kata, but I would argue that in the time it takes you to work your way through those easier kata and get to the complicated ones, you could have just started with the complicated ones and gotten better at them over time.

To answer your question, though, my dojo teaches NO kata after Shodan. We are required to be able to perform every kata in the system in order to test for Shodan. The black belt ranks are for the bunkai (breakdown/analysis) of the kata, refinement of technique and mechanics, and development of a personal approach to karate.

[MatsuShinshii]

As Spartacus says, the quantity of kata you know is unimportant, and the order you learn them in isn't necessarily important, either. Sure, you can say that some easier kata build up to more complicated kata, but I would argue that in the time it takes you to work your way through those easier kata and get to the complicated ones, you could have just started with the complicated ones and gotten better at them over time.

To answer your question, though, my dojo teaches NO kata after Shodan. We are required to be able to perform every kata in the system in order to test for Shodan. The black belt ranks are for the bunkai (breakdown/analysis) of the kata, refinement of technique and mechanics, and development of a personal approach to karate.

Agree with both you and Spartacus.

Out of curiosity how many Kata do you have before Shodan? I know you train in Shorin Ryu (Shobayashi-ryu?) and others so I am very curious how many Kata you learn prior to your Shodan grading.

How long on average does it take to grade to Shodan?

I agree with both of you about the number of Kata. We only practice 16 Kata and with Bunkai this is a good deal of a life time of study. However we learn the Bunkai as we learn the Kata and also learn two man drills along with them. On average it take 5 to 7 years to grade to Shodan but some students take longer.

Along with Spartacus we learn Passai at Shodan. There are seven Kata that we learn prior to Shodan and the remainder are learned by Godan. We do however have 11 Buki'gwa (Kobudo) Kata as well.

[Spartacus Maximus]

@MatsuShinshii

Not sure to whom your question is addressed, but here is an answer:

My karate is of Chibana's lineage and my teachers were taught by Miyahira as well as other direct students of Chibana's. It is the "kobayashi" style of shorin ryu. The total number of kata in the system is 20. 5 kihon kata, 3 naihanchi, 5 pinan, Passai sho/dai, kusanku sho/dai, chinto, gojushiho and teisho. By shodan one must know all the kata up to Pinan godan and be able to demonstrate bunkai(function and use of techniques) and oyo kumite (practical application in a partnered drill).

In addition one must demonstrate Passai sho without any major errors such as forgetting part of the kata. This takes an average of 3.5 years, IF one trains and practices daily. Longer if the person only trains at the dojo when it is open.

The last kata introduced is teisho or gojushiho at around 5th dan. Each dan level requires everything learned before plus one new kata to demonstrate and the oyo kumite and bunkai for previously learned kata. In other words dan gradings from shodan onwards focus mostly on technical refinement and oyo kumite and being bunkai.

[MatsuShinshii]

Thank you for your explanation Spartacus. I was asking Wastelander based on the fact that he stated they learn all kata before Shodan.

I was interested to know how many kata they learn and how long it takes to achieve Shodan grading. I find the idea interesting because every style of Karate I have taken or know about continues kata after Shodan. I would love to understand the benefits and down falls of this practice.

[Wastelander]

Thank you for your explanation Spartacus. I was asking Wastelander based on the fact that he stated they learn all kata before Shodan.

I was interested to know how many kata they learn and how long it takes to achieve Shodan grading. I find the idea interesting because every style of Karate I have taken or know about continues kata after Shodan. I would love to understand the benefits and down falls of this practice.

Like Spartacus, I'm a Kobayashi guy, but from Nakazato's lineage instead of Miyahira's. It takes 6-8 years to earn a Shodan under my Sensei, on average, and we have a total of 19 kata; Chibana's 3 Kihon Kata, Nakazato's Fukyu no Kata, 3 Naihanchi, 5 Pinan, Passai Sho/Dai, Kusanku Sho/Dai, Chinto, Gojushiho from Iju Seiichi, and Nakazato's Gorin. The kihon and fukyu kata are all essentially just moving basics, more than actual kata, and Gorin is just an amalgamation of movements from various other kata that Nakazato put together to present at the 1996 Olympics.

The idea isn't to have a perfect, elite-level kata competitor by Shodan, but to have someone who is comfortable with all of the techniques, movements, and sequences in the system, at least enough so that applications won't seem totally alien to them. We learn applications as we learn the kata, of course, and explore the bunkai process, so that students all get an idea of what they are looking at, and can drill it and make it useful. Really digging deep in the kata happens as a black belt for us, though. Up to that point, it's much more about being shown and practicing, more than trying to work out things for yourself (with guidance, of course).

[Nidan Melbourne]

At my club when we receive our Black Belt, we are Shodan-Ho instead of immediately receiving the full rank of Shodan.

For us that is to ensure that our students are fully aware of what is required of them as black belts.

As such we do:

Shodan-HO: Seeiunchin, Sanseru, Sanchin, Tensho

Shodan: Sanseru, Seisan, Sanchin, Tensho

Nidan: Seisan, Shisochin, Seipai, Sanchin, Tensho

Sandan: Shisochin, Seipai, Kururunfa, Sanchin, Tensho

Yondan: Seipai, Kururunfa, Suparempei, Sanchin, Tensho

Godan: Kururunfa, Suparempei, Sanchin, Tensho

Rookudan: Suparempei, Sanchin, Tensho

[RobertAslin2]

It definitely depends on the school. At mine, I was required to learn Tekki Shodan before promotion to shodan, and I didn't learn Empi until after I was promoted. We were required to learn Tekki Nidan for promotion to nidan, and Tekki Sandan before promotion to sandan. Other than that, it's all bunkai.

[Spartacus Maximus]

There can even be variations within the same dojo. This is the case with mine because we only have guidelines and no specific kata order. One is expected to know all the kata that are required for Shodan, but everyone may learn them in a different order. For example, one might be taught kihon kata 3 before kihon kata 1. Designated kata for oyo kumite and bunkai demonstrated at testing time are chosen at random by the instructor and the student must be ready by knowing all that is required. What each dan rank does have is a specific "demo" kata which must be as flawless as possible.