My opinion

[diamondick]

Strictly speaking, and in my opinion, taekwondo, judo, aikido, karate, boxing and wrestling are martial sports, not martial arts. From the perspective of Shaolin Kungfu, no experienced fighters who have survived numerous fights, would fight the way exponents of these sports would typically do. Kicking high, for example, not only exposes your vital organs to be bashed, it is technically inferior. For instance, high kicks distort good balance and minimize the effective use of other striking parts like the other leg, the two hands, shoulders, hips, etc.

 

If you have seen a judo match, you would have noticed how long it takes, even for a judo expert, to throw his opponent. If the opponent just jabs two fingers into the expert's eyes, or, less brutally, kicks hard at his shin, he would have foiled the expert's throw. But of course for those who are untrained, or who are trained in kungfu dance, such kicks and throws as well as martial techniques of the other sports would be formidable.

[monkeygirl]

Thank you for presenting your opinion, I hope you don't mind if I add my own thoughts and opinions to it.

 

Obviously a large majority of the styles you mentioned began as actual martial arts. So what do you think has reduced them to "martial sports"? Furthermore, what makes a "martial art" instead of a "sport"?

 

True, very much of it is sportlike, but a lot remains to the traditional style. Don't forget that a lot of what seems to be "sport" is for the sake of the student. Not jabbing somebody's eyes, so that they can see the next day.

 

True, katas have been turned into a sporting event by tournaments, etc., but they do still have some value. High kicks showcase the practitioner's balance, flexibility, and also the strength to get their leg that high. If the person can have balance and strength during a difficult situation such as a high kick, and STILL be fast as lightning, I think they'd do A-OK in a real fight.

 

A lot of other parts to katas are effective and do have good reason for being there. Those which don't, and are there to look nice...don't forget it's a martial ART. Art is supposed to flow and be pretty

 

So, wouldn't the fact that techniques are being used more effectively MAKE something a martial sport? Through most sports, tradition is thrown to the wind to make way for what is efficient and practical. Take speed skating, for example: they wear new and improved outfits to improve aerodynamics and overall speed. Baseball players upgrade to aluminum bats. Football players learn the value of good padding (as well as non-leather helmets).

 

Martial arts/sports have refined techniques over the years to be more effective, but in many styles tradition still reigns.

 

This could become a very interesting topic of discussion, but it MUST BE KEPT CONSTRUCTIVE! No bashing each other's styles, please just limit it to facts and examples of what makes something a martial art/sport. Any flame wars and discussion will be locked.

 

I'm interested to see what everyone thinks.

 

Just remember, nobody ever said sport was inferior to art

[John G]

Well written monkeygirl, and a good topic diamondick.

 

What makes a martial art an martial art?

 

Below are a few definitions taken from the web, what do you people think constitutes a martial art?

 

Encyclopædia Britannica

 

any of various fighting sports or skills, mainly of East Asian origin, such as kung fu, judo, karate, and kendo.

 

 

 

Macmillan Encyclopedia

 

Styles of armed and unarmed combat developed in the East. The Japanese forms, such as karate, judo, aikido, kendo, and sumo, derive largely from the fighting skills of the samurai. Since the late 19th century they have become popular sports, as has the Chinese style, kung fu. They are associated with Eastern philosophies, especially Zen Buddhism. See also Bushido.

 

Oxford Paperback Encyclopedia

 

A group of fighting techniques developed in Oriental countries and now practised worldwide. They offer a valued means of self-defence and are also practised as competitive sports. Jujitsu is a Japanese method of self-defence involving throws, arm- and wrist-locks, kicks, chopping movements, and punches. It gave birth to the modern combat sport of judo, a form of wrestling from a standing position. Karate students learn deep mental control as a prelude to unleashing latent forces, which enable them to deliver lethal blows with the hands and feet. Kung-fu is the Chinese form of kick-fighting; variations are practised also in Taiwan and Thailand. Aikido is a Japanese form of wrestling that uses circular moves, wrist-locks, and throws. Kendo, also from Japan, is Samurai fencing, carried out with long staffs; contestants wear padded gloves, a breastplate, and face-mask. Another version, tai kwan do, originated in Korea. (you would think they could spell Taekwon-do )

 

The American Heritage Dictionary

 

NOUN: Any of several Asian arts of combat or self-defense, such as aikido, karate, judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as sport. Often used in the plural.

 

various forms of self-defense, usually weaponless, based on techniques developed in ancient China, India, and Tibet. In modern times they have come into wide use for self-protection, as competitive sports, and for exercise.

 

Jujitsu teaches skills that enable one to overcome a bigger, stronger opponent. A popular style of jujitsu is aikido, which uses wrist, elbow, and shoulder twists and graceful falls; it is noncompetitive and incorporates various spiritual concepts. Judo, a Japanese sport created in 1882, makes use of jujitsu principles. Other popular forms of martial arts include kung fu, karate, and taekwondo, all of which emphasize blows with the feet and the side of the hand, and kendo, in which leather-covered bamboo “swords” are used. Judo and taekwondo are Olympic sports. Capoeira, a dancelike Brazilian discipline whose movements are performed to rhythmic music, is gaining in popularity.

 

The traditional Asian martial arts emphasize allowing ki (cosmic energy; also known as chi) to flow through one’s body. This belief in ki connects the martial arts with t’ai chi ch’uan, a meditationlike discipline that emphasizes slow, graceful body movements. The most popular form of individual exercise in China, t’ai chi is often performed publicly in large groups; it has been claimed to reduce stress and lower blood pressure.

[kchenault]

The word "sport" implies just what it should. That there are going to be rules of conduct in contact. That in turn opens it up for people to throw an occassional head shot. I know that right now in my dojang I am very frustrated with sparring. They don't allow shots to the head at all at my level. I have prior experience so that makes for frustration. Nothing like feigning to someones head to open the midsection. If a full contact, no holds barred situation, I would blast away at the midsection and knees and kidneys with no regard for control.

 

In short, it is all about application of technique for a predetermined end.

[Kensai]

Aikido is SPORT, its Budo! If other systems ie Tomiki choose to turn the Aikido system into a sport, then it is TOMIKI that is sport and not Aikido. Please specify styles when you make such uneducated generalisations. TKD, oringally was a "real" fighting system and not a sport. Same for Shotokan, however, so called masters reduce these styles to sport. This does not mean they all are, or that they were intended to be that way.

 

this is Aikido as John G said,

 

"A popular style of jujitsu is aikido, which uses wrist, elbow, and shoulder twists and graceful falls; it is noncompetitive and incorporates various spiritual concepts"

 

Not sport.

 

Also, I have nothing but respect for Shaolin, but dont get on the old Kung Fu superiority horse. We all know its a destructive system, yet the SHAOLIN oringally never intended it to be used in that manner. So is it wrong for someone to practice Shaolin other than for its oringal purpose of mediation? Something for you to think about Diamond.

 

Take Care.

[karatekid1975]

There are dojangs out there that do teach sport. That's fine if that's what the student wants. But there is also dojangs, like mine, that do both sport and art. I think that is cool. It give everyone a choice to try it out. If they don't like it, they don't have to leave. They just stick to the "art" part.

 

I didn't like the sport end of it, either. But then again, I never tried it (except forms and breaking in tournies). I always liked the realistic things I learned in TSD (stuff I can't use in TKD sparring). But I have been working on it (Sparring for tournies). I kind of like it. It's just a game to me. It's fun. But I also know that sport sparring is nothing like a self defense situation. I think if the student knows the difference, it's ok.

[ZeRo]

when i read the subject of a thread as "my oppion" i didnt know what to expect. but anyway, i agree with kensai about the whole aikido thing. TKD can be sport, in many WTF dojangs it is trained as a sport with very little hand techniques. i agree with the points you made about high kicks and the likes not being useful and being unpractical in street situatioins. (i think that was your min point anyway, if it wasnt tell me and ill get right back on point! )

[diamondick]

Korean and Japanese martial artists generally believe that it is an honour to fight, even to death. If a Japanese master were sparred his life by his attackers, he might even kill himself, not just to escape the shame of defeat but to die in honour for his art.

 

Chinese martial art philosophy is different. There is nothing honorable about killing oneself or being killed by others. If you cannot fight for your life, you have to run for it. It is not just an honour, but a joy to be alive.

 

This difference in philosophy can be traced to their different histories. Japanese martial arts were developed by samurais, who were actually cold-blooded assassins, ready to kill or die for their lords. Korean martial arts were developed at a time when the country was oppressed by Japanese colonialists, and Korean masters were ready to die fighting the oppressors. In contrast, Shaolin Kungfu were developed by Buddhist monks whose hallmark was compassion, and tai chi chuan by Taoist priests whose preoccupation was immortality. Both Shaolin and tai chi chuan masters loved life, their own as well as others'.

[Kyle-san]

Korean and Japanese martial artists generally believe that it is an honour to fight, even to death. If a Japanese master were sparred his life by his attackers, he might even kill himself, not just to escape the shame of defeat but to die in honour for his art.

 

Chinese martial art philosophy is different. There is nothing honorable about killing oneself or being killed by others. If you cannot fight for your life, you have to run for it. It is not just an honour, but a joy to be alive.

 

This difference in philosophy can be traced to their different histories. Japanese martial arts were developed by samurais, who were actually cold-blooded assassins, ready to kill or die for their lords. Korean martial arts were developed at a time when the country was oppressed by Japanese colonialists, and Korean masters were ready to die fighting the oppressors. In contrast, Shaolin Kungfu were developed by Buddhist monks whose hallmark was compassion, and tai chi chuan by Taoist priests whose preoccupation was immortality. Both Shaolin and tai chi chuan masters loved life, their own as well as others'.

 

Whoa... those are some really mixed up facts. Death for samurai was the ultimate aim, but a useless death wasn't promoted at all. Only in times of a great dishonour with no other alternative (prospect of being captured, shame to their lord, etc) was seppuku used.

 

As for Shaolin monks being more compassionate because their focus was on Buddhism, well, check history. Some of the most violent battles in Chinese and Japanese history were to wipe out groups of Shaolin and Buddhist monastaries because they posed a threat.

 

It seems to me your reasoning is based on a mixed pile of half-truths and opinions that need more facts to back them up. I'll agree that many arts are leaning towards the sport end of things (most notably TKD, Judo and certain styles of Karate), but many dojos are keeping the focus on the art.

[diamondick]

If you are talking about sport, that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat - as it is - well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body.