Have you ever demoted anyone?

[DWx]

I went on a course recently with one of the head's of my style. The course was about instructing and teaching and one of the topics that was brought up was promotion and demotion!

For promotion at kyu/kup grades, the pass mark is 60%. Now that's hard to achieve anyway but the master running the course suggested that if he scored a student with 10% over the pass mark (i.e. 70% and more) he would consider double promoting them. However, if the student scored 10% lower than the pass mark (50%) he wouldn't just fail them but consider demoting them one belt!

Have you ever known anyone to be demoted before?

[Wado Heretic]

I have not in the context of karate. I think in particular this instructor was being a little black and white, but I understand the basic logic; fitness for role.

The belts are a qualification, and as an educational tool have to reflect the knowledge of the wearer to be of use to the instructor. If a student, during a grading, failed to meet the standards of the belt they already held, having failed the present grading, I might consider demotion a fair possibility. Simply because they would be shown as being "unfit for role"; their skills do not match the belt they had.

I do not think a grading situation is the right situation for it though; maybe if they stopped training for a while, then came back, and were obviously not up to standard a demotion would be necessary, and fair. One bag grading though I always think as being more a case of not ready for the grading.

[sensei8]

Demoted?? Yes, sure!!

However, not on the basis of a Testing Cycle. At a Testing Cycle, it's a pass or fail; with a minimum score of 70%. If the minimum isn't achieved, that testing candidate simply isn't promoted. NO punishments for trying; that would be wrong!!

I've never demoted any of my students for cause, however, our SKKA/Hombu has demoted students in the past, one was my highest Dan ranking student, mainly those of Dan ranking, for dishonorable acts.

[Nidan Melbourne]

I only have ever demoted a student where their behavior was not up to par. Especially where they have been behaving poorly in Society or in Class. As we have expectations of students on how to behave and that there are always repurcussions for poor behavior.

Personally I have demoted 3 people, each of them were either a 3rd or 2nd Kyu. I demoted them right back to White Belt (9th Kyu) and require them to regrade for each rank. As to remind them that there are consequences.

Personally I have demoted myself once or twice because i felt like i didn't deserve to wear the rank around my waist. Both times surrended my belt to my sensei and asked him to only give it back until a time that I demonstrated the skills and traits of a Black Belt.

1st Time to Green Belt (5th Kyu) and lasted 6 Weeks.

2nd Time right back to White Belt (9th Kyu) and lasted 6 months. Sensei tried to return my rank several times, but i politely refused because i still felt like i didn't warrant that rank.

Every student I teach or train with me understood my logic for this and respected that manner.

[Alan Armstrong]

I have demoted myself to zero; this is not a joke.

Due to self image issues, my level of expertise fluctuates depending on mood swings or weather conditions; this was the joke part!

Years on and off the mat or in or out of the dojo, boxing ring, kwoon or gymnasium outdoor calisthenic parks adds up accumulatively twenty years at a very conservative estimate.

As for my fighting skills go, depends largely on who I'm fighting at the time.

When my Sensei sold the Dojo the idea of having a Black belt went with it.

Therefore I am technically martial art dojo-less starting again at Zero.

[Spartacus Maximus]

In most cases of demotion I have heard of, it was a political issue because the person being demoted did something morally, ethically or legally wrong. In all cases demotion is only symbolic when one considers acquired skills. With or without rank, with or without recognition by a governing body; one either has or doesn't have skills.

An instructor may demote someone or strip them of rank or even renounce a student but it is impossible to erase that student's ability whatever it might be at the point said student is demoted or renounced.

[Lupin1]

We've demoted kids for a few classes for behavior or for slacking off. Usually after two or three classes with a lower belt on, they straighten up and earn their old belt back. We would never think of demoting someone who was trying their hardest but just not getting it.

[Spartacus Maximus]

What about self-demoting? Or accepting a lower rank based of a new instructor's judgment? This is probably much more difficult than demoting another person.

[Lupin1]

What about self-demoting? Or accepting a lower rank based of a new instructor's judgment? This is probably much more difficult than demoting another person.

I don't agree with self-demotion. At my school, at least, it would be disrespectful to the instructor who gave you that rank. If you think you don't deserve the rank at the moment due to being out or just not putting in the effort, you don't demote yourself. You step up your game and get back up to standards.

As for a new instructor's judgement, are you talking about the same school? If so, I think the new instructor would be overstepping their bounds. At a different school, I wouldn't consider it demotion. For all intents and purposes, rank only has meaning within your school. Different schools have different standards and different ways of doing things. I wouldn't consider it a demotion-- I'd consider it a separate rank.

[IcemanSK]

Demotion due to poor testing is excessive and needlessly punitive. There's no incentive for the student to continue. Telling the student to wait until they're ready to test (as in, up to standard) encourages continued training and growth. Demotion after a poor testing tells the student that they are bad and unwanted in the training hall.