Foot step variations on Goju Ryu Tensho kata

[anto]

Hello Everybody,

This is my first post so greeting to all of you.

First of all, I am sorry if I don't use the right terms on my post below, especially the Japanese terms.

I just celebrated my 48 birthday this month. So my body started to refuse cooperating with my mind in the last few years. A part from I don't do exercise and just mostly sit all day in the office and at home, I had been a heavy smoker until last year. I am not completely quit smoking yet, but I have reduced smoking quite a lot.

So I am thinking of starting to exercise every day at home by performing some Karate Katas, especially the ones involving breathing exercise. There are indeed a lot of exercises, but I think I like doing Karate Kata. I think I will do this for a few months before joining a Goju Ryu Dojo.

When I was teenager I joined Karate Dojos, Shotokan style when I was 11 to 12 years old and then Goju Ryu when I was 12 to 16 years old. But at that time my main intention was quite different. I got bullied and harassed quite often so I needed something that I can use to defend myself. But this time my main intention is just to stay healthy physically and mentally.

Since my memory is getting rusty, I had a look on Youtube about some Senseis performing Katas. And I came across some clips about Goju Ryu Tensho Kata.

As far as I remember, we practised Tensho Kata like the one performed by Hanshi Hichiya Yoshio on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKMmE-m6Yck. The first 2 steps forward is performed like Sanchin Kata, so there are 5 steps forward and 5 steps backward.

But after I had a look at several other clips, it looks like there are 2 other variants especially on the foot steps. First, the one performed by Shihan Morio Higaonna on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf9eT3P0aU8, where there are only 3 steps forward and 5 steps backward. And second, the one performed by Shihan Goshi Yamaguchi Saiko on

which is quite similar to the one performed by Shihan Morio Higaonna but a little bit different at the start and on the breathing technic.

I am not looking for which one is right or wrong. I am quite sure there must be good reasons for those variants. But could anybody let me know which variant is more popular and being practised in most Dojos? Or perhaps you could tell me which variant is being taught in your Dojo?

And do you think this is a bad idea to choose Karate Kata as a mean of staying healthy for middle age man?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Cheers,

Anto

[sensei8]

Welcome to KF, anto; glad that you're here!!

I'm not a Goju practitioner, per se, and I don't formally teach any Goju Kata's in my dojo, nor does our Hombu. Dabbled because I love Kata from styles outside of our Shindokan circle. Hopefully, some Goju practitioners here at KF can offer some suggestions.

And do you think this is a bad idea to choose Karate Kata as a mean of staying healthy for middle age man?

Coming from someone, me, that's 59 years of age, I say that your idea is a good one. You're moving, and you're not sedentary. Kata practice helps in fine tuning the Kata's across the board, and if you execute them as they're suppose to be, and with a determined resolve, it's one heck of a cardio burn.

Good luck, train hard, and train well!!

[anto]

Thank you sensei8.

I forgot to mention one thing. I was not following the development of Goju Ryu until last week. That was due to I had other interests started when I was 17, like interests on girls, electronic, internet, music, guitar, etc. So I assume there has been some developments in the last 30+ years, especially to improve the way we practice Katas. Is this correct? If so, which variant of Goju Ryu are mostly taught in Dojos especially in Europe?

Good luck, train hard, and train well!!

Thanks. But I think I will not train myself hard in the next few months, like performing Sanchin Kata properly, even the easier one or Sanchin dai ichi, so let alone Sanchin dai ni. I will start slowly on easier Katas by remembering and practising the hands movements, feet movements, the breathing, and the combination of them in that order.

[JR 137]

I know you're not really looking for why it's practiced differently by different organizations, but I'll give you my take on it, as it may help you decide on which one you choose...

Tensho kata was developed by Chojun Miyagi, founder of Goju Ryu. It came from I believe White Crane Kung Fu, as he took elements of that system while developing the kata. He developed it as a counterpoint to Sanchin kata. Sanchin represented the hard (Go) part of the style, while Tensho represented the soft (Ju) of the style.

Miyagi didn't have a set curriculum in Goju that everyone followed. He was standardizing a curriculum when karate was accepted by Japan as an official martial art, but he passed away well before he was done.

Not having a standardized curriculum, Miyagi didn't teach all his students the same kata, nor did he teach them all each kata the same way; he altered kata to each student's strengths and weaknesses. After Miyagi's death, his students started teaching their own students the way they were taught; ideally they taught the art as they learned it from Miyagi.

So for a teacher to say "my version is right and everything else is wrong" is inaccurate in a sense. People have changed it further since Miyagi's passing; if that's right or wrong is in the eye of the beholder.

Which version of those is most common/popular? No idea. Which version is best? No idea. The version my organization does is closest to the last linked version. I study Seido Juku, which comes from Kyokushin. Kyokushin's founder (Mas Oyama) was a student of Gogen Yamaguchi, among others. Gogen Yamaguchi is Goshi Yamaguchi's deceased father. Gogen Yamaguchi was Chojun Miyagi's student, who brought Goju Ryu to Japan, naming it Goju-Kai.

Which version should you practice? In a non-sarcastic way, whichever you like most. There haven't been any realistic "modern improvements" to the way kata is performed/should be performed. There's no true advantage in performing one version over another. If we're talking combative reasons, then maybe. Just maybe if the student knows the kata inside-out and it fits their philosophy better, but that's really a stretch.

[anto]

Thanks a lot JR 137 for sharing your comprehensive insight on this. That indeed is the most probable reason why there are variants within Goju Ryu.

As my objective to do exercise using Goju Ryu Katas is mainly to stay healthy, I think it is quite easy for me to decide which one to choose. That is to choose the style that is being taught in a Dojo close to where I live, whatever style would that be, as long as its root is Chojun Miyagi Goju Ryu. So all variants like the variants on Tensho Kata I initially posted, are fine with me. I am not sure why I like Goju Ryu, so it stuck in my mind. And I forgot why I switched from Shotokan to Goju Ryu 36 years ago.

My questions are perhaps more related to what has been going on in the last few decades. So I was wondering if one style/variant becomes more popular than the other. I was also wondering if there is some kind of "standardisation" amongst different Goju Ryu organisations within the last 30 years. So there would be common version of katas in all organisations on top of the traditional ones being taught in each organisation. Or perhaps this last one is a bad idea because perhaps the traditional ones will fade out quicker, which is not good.

[JR 137]

I don't study Goju, and I'm certainly not an expert on it, but from what I've seen...

Most Goju Ryu schools (excluding Chinese Goju, American Goju, and stuff like that) have more in common than differences. Most will teach the core Goju kata at similar ranks, and while there may be differences in how they're performed, they're not profound differences.

A lot of that has to do with Miyagi not having a standardized curriculum. Some organizations may include kata Miyagi never taught and/or omit a kata, but as far as I've seen there's very few differences in curricula. I'm not sure how far off Japanese Goju (aka Goju Kai) is from Okinawan Goju curriculum-wise. I think the differences will be more of application of techniques between the various branches than actual kata.

As far as Goju kata variation, I've seen more variation in Sanchin kata than any other kata, especially Miyagi developed kata such as Tensho and Saiha/Saifa. Sanchin is performed with and without turns, hands open (rare) and closed, different breathing, etc. amongst the various Goju organizations.

Practicing this stuff for your stated reasons is all fine and good, but if you really want to delve into the why and how, an instructor is mandatory IMO. Without an instructor, you're just replicating movements; with an instructor, you're being educated as to why, how, etc. and receiving feedback to improve. Again, nothing wrong with what you're doing at all, but be aware you're really just getting a superficial understanding of it.

[Nidan Melbourne]

Hello Everybody,

This is my first post so greeting to all of you.

First of all, I am sorry if I don't use the right terms on my post below, especially the Japanese terms.

I just celebrated my 48 birthday this month. So my body started to refuse cooperating with my mind in the last few years. A part from I don't do exercise and just mostly sit all day in the office and at home, I had been a heavy smoker until last year. I am not completely quit smoking yet, but I have reduced smoking quite a lot.

So I am thinking of starting to exercise every day at home by performing some Karate Katas, especially the ones involving breathing exercise. There are indeed a lot of exercises, but I think I like doing Karate Kata. I think I will do this for a few months before joining a Goju Ryu Dojo.

When I was teenager I joined Karate Dojos, Shotokan style when I was 11 to 12 years old and then Goju Ryu when I was 12 to 16 years old. But at that time my main intention was quite different. I got bullied and harassed quite often so I needed something that I can use to defend myself. But this time my main intention is just to stay healthy physically and mentally.

Since my memory is getting rusty, I had a look on Youtube about some Senseis performing Katas. And I came across some clips about Goju Ryu Tensho Kata.

As far as I remember, we practised Tensho Kata like the one performed by Hanshi Hichiya Yoshio on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKMmE-m6Yck. The first 2 steps forward is performed like Sanchin Kata, so there are 5 steps forward and 5 steps backward.

But after I had a look at several other clips, it looks like there are 2 other variants especially on the foot steps. First, the one performed by Shihan Morio Higaonna on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf9eT3P0aU8, where there are only 3 steps forward and 5 steps backward. And second, the one performed by Shihan Goshi Yamaguchi Saiko on

which is quite similar to the one performed by Shihan Morio Higaonna but a little bit different at the start and on the breathing technic.

I am not looking for which one is right or wrong. I am quite sure there must be good reasons for those variants. But could anybody let me know which variant is more popular and being practised in most Dojos? Or perhaps you could tell me which variant is being taught in your Dojo?

And do you think this is a bad idea to choose Karate Kata as a mean of staying healthy for middle age man?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Cheers,

Anto

Welcome to the forum, the most popular ones that you linked are Yamaguchi Sensei and Higaonna Sensei. There is no right or wrong for kata, as there will always be some variation on kata and no one right way.

This is because the IOGFK (Higaonna Morio) and IGK (Yamaguchi Gogen) are the two largest Goju Schools worldwide as such those two variants are more common.

My Dojo has the Goju-Kai Lineage (Yamaguchi), as such perform it that way but with a slightly different variation on timing where we are slower.

Doing Kata is good yes, but for you it may be even more beneficial to train in a Dojo as you have said because that will increase your Heart and Lung Health, along with your overall health.

Also have you thought about or started going to a Gym with supervision from a trainer to help with your health?

[anto]

Thank you for your further comments and suggestions JR 137 and Nidan Melbourne.

Practicing this stuff for your stated reasons is all fine and good, but if you really want to delve into the why and how, an instructor is mandatory IMO. Without an instructor, you're just replicating movements; with an instructor, you're being educated as to why, how, etc. and receiving feedback to improve. Again, nothing wrong with what you're doing at all, but be aware you're really just getting a superficial understanding of it.

Doing Kata is good yes, but for you it may be even more beneficial to train in a Dojo as you have said because that will increase your Heart and Lung Health, along with your overall health.

For sure I will be joining a Dojo to get feedback and instructions from the Sensei. I found that there are quite a lot of Goju Ryu Dojos in Vienna. Amongst others, there is one IOGFK Dojo - http://www.iogkf-austria.at, NGKKI Dojo - http://www.gojukai-karatedo.at and Karate Do Wien - http://www.karatewien.at. I am not sure to which international organisation the last one belongs to. But I think I will join them (if they would allow me) as there is one Dojo within their organisation which is quite close to my apartment. And they offer quite flexible training schedule in the evening.

But before that, I would like to prepare myself first at home. In the Dojo, I don't want to be always sitting on the side line with pale face and cold sweat due to exhaustion. So I want to do the exercise step by step. First by - as JR 137 mentioned - replicating the movements of some Goju Ryu katas that I remember, without really flexing my muscles. I use the video clips on Youtube to help me remembering that. And then I will slowly do that more properly. In the last 2 weeks, I always do that at least for one hour in the morning, sometimes also another one hour in the evening. Even without really flexing my muscles, I still feel the pain in my feet now especially on my thighs from practising Gekisai dai ichi and Tensho katas this morning

A couple decades ago, I could easily walk up hill through the jungles or forests with hard terrain for at least 10 Km without stopping. A few months back on a hiking trip of not more than 5 km on the hill with easy and flat terrain, I had to stop and sat several times with pale face and cold sweat perhaps every kilometre or even less.

I only mentioned that I want to be more healthy. But the main trigger of all of these is that, for the first time in 25 years I went to a Lung doctor 2 weeks ago for a checkup as I have difficulties in breathing. The doctor told me that my lung is only functioning about 45% of it should be. I had been a heavy smoker. Especially in the last 15 years, I smoked 2 to 3 packs or 40 to 60 cigarettes a day. And I didn't do exercise at all, perhaps just walking or bicycling once in a while.

I was quite sick and kept coughing in spring last year. So I started to reduce my cigarette consumption and play badminton. I had never wanted to go to the Lung doctor as I knew that the only thing he/she would tell me is to stop smoking. But last month I thought that as I am getting old, I better have my lung checked. A part from reducing my cigarette consumption to about 10 to 15 cigarettes a day now, I thought it is better to do exercise for my lung as well. The only thing that popped up in my mind when I thought about breathing exercise are Sanchin and Tensho katas which I learnt when I was teenager.

Also have you thought about or started going to a Gym with supervision from a trainer to help with your health?

Thanks a lot for your suggestion. However, a part from only for getting healthier, I don't see the sense of self achievements from doing repetitive exercises in a Gym. Over the time, I could possibly only see that sense of self achievements from lifting or pulling heavier weights or do faster and longer exercises. I might get bored easily by doing that. I see that I can get the sense of self achievements quite a lot more from performing Katas, like over the time improving my feet and hands movements, stances, breathing, combination of them, the right timing, etc. I am quite sure that I need years of training to properly do that. So I think the chances for me to get bored easily from doing that is quite low.