Discouraged Shodan... my own fault (long read)

[LostAtKarate]

My Sensei is a good guy. I used to think of him as a friend even. Years ago, we'd hang and shoot the breeze after class etc.

I however am not a "good" student.. never have been. Technique-wize nor etiquette (I think I'm one of those whos personality is not well suited to "traditional" Karate practice... but love it just the same). But even so, years ago he would encourage me to help him "teach", which is something that should admittedly be happening at much lower rank than I was at the time (I came to him from a different school at a "high" kyu rank), but due to fear/shyness/insecurity/personality issues, i would "discourage" that as often as possible (with it being only being "forced" on me occasionally anyway... which is a good thing). Being the cheapskate that I am, he was even kind enough to offer "teaching time in exchange for my fees"... at first kyu! Both because I think he could see that I needed the encouragement, and also because he genuinely could use the help. Due to insecurity, I of course turned it down.

I am a black belt now. Even after first becoming black belt, he still strongly encouraged me to teach more, and increased other very minor "responsibilities" but I'd still try to let him know that I didn't think I was "ready" or "good enough" or blah blah blah, for that and occasionally he'd still "force" me, and sometimes not.

Flash forward to a few years later. I still believe him to be a "really good guy", and a great Sensei, but whether or not we are still "friends" is hard to say at this point (he's not "mean" by any stretch, its just the comfort level and comradery we once shared, appears to be gone) and I think he is understandably, a lot less tolerant of my personality now.

I believe he does the best for his students in general, but through my own fault and personality issues, I believe I have forced him to somewhat "give up" on me. He doesn't completely "not train" me, but I feel like I am thought of more like a transient student, that is only here for a short while, so no focus is given to me, but I am also not "used". I feel like I am neither a student nor am I being groomed to be a "leader" (just to put it out there.. I am an adult btw), even though I see others at lower ranks being groomed in such a way, mostly because they are indeed more personable and accomodating. I have expressed my "change of heart" and my willingness/desire to be "used" (moreso to be "useful") to which his response was "I no longer have a use for you in that capacity" (there were more words than that said to explain his thinking (though those words in quotes, were indeed used), but that was the gist).

I feel like I have no place in the dojo, even though I still think he's a "good guy" and I still think he is one of the best teachers around here (im not willing to switch schools over this, though it may be time to at least look for a "different" athletic kind of hobby... maybe one that is more "singular" and that I can do by myself). It feels as though I'm not a student, I'm not being groomed to be any kind of "assistant", I'm just "there" (I actually have no real problem with "just" being a student either... as long as I received the training and corrections that a true student would, but that is somewhat missing as well). I still thoroughly enjoy everything I get out of Karate (vicariously through others), but I'm also discouraged at the same time. I have tried for over a year, sometimes admittedly failing, to improve myself to become a "better student" (more to do with personality/etiquette than technique), but its not something he's noticed, and I'm not sure what else to "change"... I have actually asked, but not been given anything tangible to work towards.

Basically he has done a fantastic job of encouraging me to the point of believing I "could do this", all while I discouraged him into believing I was no longer "right" for the part.

If you have advice, I'd listen, (even if it is just to "suck it up and get over it") but I'm not sure this is something that can be "fixed" at this point, as I believe his mind to be pretty well made up about me and my "usefulness". I think this is more of a vent than anything.

[ashworth]

Sorry to hear this is happening to you and effecting you both outside of the dojo as well..

Best thing I can think of is to figure out exactly what you would like your role to be in the dojo, whether its to just be a student or if you do want to assist every now and then, once you are sure what you want arrange to meet outside of the dojo and have a heart to heart on the matter, it is not worth losing your friendship outside of the dojo as well.

explain exactly how you feel, see what he would like from you as well. Maybe talk to him about what goals you should be setting yourself so that he can see that you still want to progress with your training and maybe that could motivate him to help you out more in class like he does with his "true students"

[sensei8]

First off, I'd like to welcome you to KF, LostAtKarate; glad that you're here!!

Not all black belts can teach, nor should they ever try!! In all MA schools there are two roles...teacher...student.

Having said that, I believe that you need to sit him, your Sensei/CI, and have a heart to heart talk with you expressing just what you've expressed to us here. If you've done that to no avail, then the fault and decision is both of yours.

His for turning his back on you, especially on the floor!! His job is to teach you irregardless of any personal feelings he might or might not have towards you for whatever reason(s).

Your job is to learn the style that his teaching you!! Your job is not to be the next instructor, even though brown belts are usually groomed for that role, because it takes quite a lot to be an instructor at any capacity. Your also responsible to explain your reason(s) to your Sensei/CI as to why you do not want to be groomed in that fashion but to only learn the style. If not, then it's time for you to leave so that you're not wasting his time or your time. WHY?

Communication is a fragile two way street. One's that full of many potholes along the way, and the only way to avoid these communication potholes is to be honest up front across the board so as to there's no misgivings and/or misunderstandings whatsoever!!

Sounds like he's giving up on you as far as you being groomed as one of his instructors, and that's ok because he offered, and you politely turned him down...again...that's fine and acceptable. Happens in MA schools everyday all of the time!!

However, it's not ok that your Sensei/CI has turned his back, even if only slightly, because, and again, it's his job to teach everyone all of the time without ambiguity and/or reservations. If not, he needs to close the school asap because he's wasting his students time and money. THAT'S NOT COOL!!

Don't be afraid, sit him down and with emotional content, express to him everything you expressed to us here asap. Otherwise, the relationship will further fester between you two.

Your Sensei/CI violated one of the most important maxims for Sensei's/CI's...and that is...

Do NOT interact with your students outside of the school ever!!

Why??

Students tend to misunderstand the relationship between Sensei and student when they interact outside of the school. They, the student(s), misunderstand that NOW, since they're interacting outside of the school, that the Sensei owes that student something, and that that student can start becoming rather demanding of quite many of things. Things like special treatments surrounding anything and everything that's about testing cycles...which is the worse of them all...class attendances, authority by association, access into the school whenever it's closed, violating school integrity by undesired actions through breaching personal space, and whatever else can be birthed from the Sensei being all buddy and buddy. There's a fine line, and your Sensei/CI crossed it with a very broad stroke of his brush.

You both are going to have to share the responsibilities, and not assign blame on anyone of you two because that will just make the matter far worse than it was before. Things can't be solved during the blame game!! It's time to listen to one another openly and reach that agreeable solution across the board.

IMHO!!

[LostAtKarate]

First off, I'd like to welcome you to KF, LostAtKarate; glad that you're here!!

Not all black belts can teach, nor should they ever try!! In all MA schools there are two roles...teacher...student.

Thanks for the welcome, And this is what I came into it believing as well, and still agree with, however most experiences I've had with the martial arts in these parts tends to not support that notion however.

This current Sensei I believe "gets" it too, however I let my perspective be somewhat skewed by my first school, in which the teacher himself was -very- good.... but was almost never there... and did not leave someone specific to take over for him when not there... so, you could have a yellow belt leading class.... frequently. So I told myself that I would not let myself be "used" (in the more negative connotation) in that way at this new school. The difference is, this new school doesn't use people in the same way, they may "make use" of people, but with their consent, or at the very least "knowledge" beforehand.

I believe the current sensei however does believe that he should be able to count on upper ranks for support, and I take no issue with that, now that I "get" it.

Now for most of the rest of your post, I can't say I 100% agree (I possibly agree up to bout 60%)

My Sensei does not do this "for a living", he does it because he likes it (charges a small fee, but I'd say at least 80-90% of that get circulated back in some form to the students/school) and a lot of his time is eaten up by it, if he can't have "friends" in the dojo, where else might he make new friends?

Now I do agree that there are risks involved with that practice, and I think he knows it too, because he has mentioned it biting him before (in a different way, someone who contributed a lot of money to different events thought he should have more say in how things are run, and got butt-hurt one time when he didn't get a grade he thought he "deserved"... so he left).

So that is at least part of what I think he's doing with me now, trying to "right a wrong" by becoming too friendly at first (which is ok for some people, but I don't think it was a good choice for my particular personality)... it is just my belief that he is somewhat "overcorrecting" is all. Gone from one to the other, hoping it might settle in the middle one of these days.... it's just that "settling" doesn't appear to be happening.

I do agree with you (and Ashworth) that communication is key. I will see if I can have a proper conversation about this with him. I have tried before, but it was generally "reactionary" and reacting to something that happened. If it's more of a general discussion, away from the dojo when we are not both looking to get home after class, it may go over better.

Here's to hoping! And thanks for "listening".

[ashworth]

I do agree with you (and Ashworth) that communication is key. I will see if I can have a proper conversation about this with him. I have tried before, but it was generally "reactionary" and reacting to something that happened. If it's more of a general discussion, away from the dojo when we are not both looking to get home after class, it may go over better.

Here's to hoping! And thanks for "listening".

Definitely make sure that it is away from the dojo and not after class, you want to be away from that environment to make the conversation a bit more neutral. After class he may still be in the role of "Sensei" and as you have said that you have a friendship outside of the dojo thats where you want the conversation to be, outside of the dojo, as friends. When I read your scenario I imagined it was my student (who is also a friend, and is actually going through the process of becoming an instructor...your not him are you!?) If I was the sensei I would rather this conversation take place outside of the dojo...

That is just my view anyway...

[LostAtKarate]

. When I read your scenario I imagined it was my student (who is also a friend, and is actually going through the process of becoming an instructor...your not him are you!?) .

If there is anything I can assure you of... I am not him.

Thanks again.

[ashworth]

Just checking

keep us posted on how it goes, hope everything works out for the best.

Best of luck

[sensei8]

I do agree with you (and Ashworth) that communication is key. I will see if I can have a proper conversation about this with him. I have tried before, but it was generally "reactionary" and reacting to something that happened. If it's more of a general discussion, away from the dojo when we are not both looking to get home after class, it may go over better.

Here's to hoping! And thanks for "listening".

Definitely make sure that it is away from the dojo and not after class, you want to be away from that environment to make the conversation a bit more neutral. After class he may still be in the role of "Sensei" and as you have said that you have a friendship outside of the dojo thats where you want the conversation to be, outside of the dojo, as friends. When I read your scenario I imagined it was my student (who is also a friend, and is actually going through the process of becoming an instructor...your not him are you!?) If I was the sensei I would rather this conversation take place outside of the dojo...

That is just my view anyway...

To me, your Sensei will still be the Sensei, no matter where you two speak about your concerns. Away from the school or not, imho, is of little concern. However, neutral might be good from a safety point of view, but only if your Sensei has a violent history whenever he and his teaching style is criticized by one of his students...it has, and will, happen to someone in the future.

To me, if you've not worries about any violent reactions from your Sensei, then I'd have that conversation between you two IN THE SCHOOL. Outside, again, violates the CI maxim that speaks towards fraternizing with students outside of the school.

Keeping the conversation 100% business as well as professional, imho, is paramount across the board. Anything else might only serve to undermined the entire conversation as to your concerns. Always remember that while he's your Sensei, but just like you, he puts his pants on one leg at a time.

However you decide, you'll have my full support. Best of luck!!

[MatsuShinshii]

My Sensei is a good guy. I used to think of him as a friend even. Years ago, we'd hang and shoot the breeze after class etc.

I however am not a "good" student.. never have been. Technique-wize nor etiquette (I think I'm one of those whos personality is not well suited to "traditional" Karate practice... but love it just the same). But even so, years ago he would encourage me to help him "teach", which is something that should admittedly be happening at much lower rank than I was at the time (I came to him from a different school at a "high" kyu rank), but due to fear/shyness/insecurity/personality issues, i would "discourage" that as often as possible (with it being only being "forced" on me occasionally anyway... which is a good thing). Being the cheapskate that I am, he was even kind enough to offer "teaching time in exchange for my fees"... at first kyu! Both because I think he could see that I needed the encouragement, and also because he genuinely could use the help. Due to insecurity, I of course turned it down.

I am a black belt now. Even after first becoming black belt, he still strongly encouraged me to teach more, and increased other very minor "responsibilities" but I'd still try to let him know that I didn't think I was "ready" or "good enough" or blah blah blah, for that and occasionally he'd still "force" me, and sometimes not.

Flash forward to a few years later. I still believe him to be a "really good guy", and a great Sensei, but whether or not we are still "friends" is hard to say at this point (he's not "mean" by any stretch, its just the comfort level and comradery we once shared, appears to be gone) and I think he is understandably, a lot less tolerant of my personality now.

I believe he does the best for his students in general, but through my own fault and personality issues, I believe I have forced him to somewhat "give up" on me. He doesn't completely "not train" me, but I feel like I am thought of more like a transient student, that is only here for a short while, so no focus is given to me, but I am also not "used". I feel like I am neither a student nor am I being groomed to be a "leader" (just to put it out there.. I am an adult btw), even though I see others at lower ranks being groomed in such a way, mostly because they are indeed more personable and accomodating. I have expressed my "change of heart" and my willingness/desire to be "used" (moreso to be "useful") to which his response was "I no longer have a use for you in that capacity" (there were more words than that said to explain his thinking (though those words in quotes, were indeed used), but that was the gist).

I feel like I have no place in the dojo, even though I still think he's a "good guy" and I still think he is one of the best teachers around here (im not willing to switch schools over this, though it may be time to at least look for a "different" athletic kind of hobby... maybe one that is more "singular" and that I can do by myself). It feels as though I'm not a student, I'm not being groomed to be any kind of "assistant", I'm just "there" (I actually have no real problem with "just" being a student either... as long as I received the training and corrections that a true student would, but that is somewhat missing as well). I still thoroughly enjoy everything I get out of Karate (vicariously through others), but I'm also discouraged at the same time. I have tried for over a year, sometimes admittedly failing, to improve myself to become a "better student" (more to do with personality/etiquette than technique), but its not something he's noticed, and I'm not sure what else to "change"... I have actually asked, but not been given anything tangible to work towards.

Basically he has done a fantastic job of encouraging me to the point of believing I "could do this", all while I discouraged him into believing I was no longer "right" for the part.

If you have advice, I'd listen, (even if it is just to "suck it up and get over it") but I'm not sure this is something that can be "fixed" at this point, as I believe his mind to be pretty well made up about me and my "usefulness". I think this is more of a vent than anything.

LostAtKarate,

It sounds to me that your roles have switched. It sounds like he spent a lot of time encouraging you and you spent a lot of time discouraging him in the beginning. Now it seems that you are finally ready and he has all but given up.

Like others have said I would recommend you sitting down with your Sensei and expressing your feelings and telling him that you have been making an effort and that you now feel ready.

That does not mean that the outcome will go your way but you will have an answer and can make a decision based on that answer.

I am not quite sure of the time line but it sounds like this went on for quite some time. In my opinion he probably gave up.

Unlike your Sensei if they show me that I am wasting my time I show them the door. You have to realize that instructors love the art as much if not more that their students but their time is just as valuable as yours is. Instructors, at least in my case, are looking for those that we can pass the art onto. With the limited amount of time we have with students, it is human nature to spend your time with those wanting to learn.

The relationship between teacher and student is a two way street. If a student does not show that they want to learn or does not put in the effort this is for all intensive purposes a slap in the teachers face. If an instructor takes the time and puts in the effort to teach the student, they expect the student to reciprocate his efforts by making an effort to learn and put in the same hard work that the instructor is.

Based on your post I can't say I blame the instructor. If he has other students that are putting forth the effort he most likely turned his efforts to them.

The only way to repair this relationship is to sit down with him and speak from the heart. However realize that actions speak louder than words. Make an effort to show him that you are putting forth the effort. Since he has been trying to get you to help him teach, take it upon yourself to help your fellow students. Make yourself available and continue to ask if there is anything that you can help him with. Over time he will see the change and might start to trust you again. Remember that trust is easily broken. If he feels that he spent a lot of time and effort into getting you to where you are at but feels like it was not appreciated the trust is no longer there. Prove to him you are worthy of his trust. Give 100% every minute of class and show him that you appreciate what he has done for you.

Often times, especially with old school teachers, the best way to say you appreciate your instructors efforts is to put in the hard work. Seeing our students skills, knowledge and maturity advance makes the effort worth it.

So if you talk with him and tell him your are ready to start stepping up, do it. If you do, I think you will see a change in his personality and the way he interacts with you. However, I'll give you a word of caution... if you truly are at the cross roads and ready to make a change, don't tell him you are and then not put in the time and effort. Show him every day and from the minute you enter the Dojo to the minute you leave the Dojo. Anything less than 100% effort and you will destroy his trust in you forever.

Keep us posted on your progress and good luck. It sounds like you are being honest with yourself and are ready to step up. I really hope you do and that you repair your friendship with you Sensei.

[LostAtKarate]

To me, if you've not worries about any violent reactions from your Sensei, then I'd have that conversation between you two IN THE SCHOOL. Outside, again, violates the CI maxim that speaks towards fraternizing with students outside of the school.

Was gonna quote different sections, but that's WAY too hard on an iPad... so...

No worries... if there is anything he isn't, it's violent. Most mellow fellow you will ever meet. The meeting outside the dojo is more about time constrainsts, rushing, etc.

Whether it's in or outside the dojo, I'll keep y'all posted.... but it may take a while as I'm on a short Karate break due to excessive work, so if it has to wait till I see him at Karate it may be a lil while